Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avalon (webcomic) (2nd nomination)

:{{la|Avalon (webcomic)}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avalon (webcomic) (2nd nomination)}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{Find sources|Avalon (webcomic)}})

Webcomic which does not meet WP:GNG or WP:WEB. There's a consensus that the Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards do not substantiate notability. Claritas § 18:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep per [http://comixpedia.com/avalon_josh_phillips_reviewed_apis_teicher is a RS review]. DubZog (talk) 17:32, 17 July 2010 (UTC) Weak Keep This seems like a case of something that's unofficial, so not particularly well sourced, yet nevertheless notable enough... a number of webcomic review / fan-sites have an entry on Avalon. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1SKPC_enEE346EE346&q=Avalon+webcomic&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= And although most of these sites individually fail per WP:WEB, it looks like perhaps it means there's something wrong with the guideline instead. Admittedly it is a rather weak point, yet it just seems.... odd... to delete an article on something that lots of people clearly care about, and that by its nature makes a good encyclopeadic topic. DubZog (talk) 23:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

:* It doesn't make a good encyclopaedic topic at all, because there's no coverage of it in reliable third party sources. Fan-site coverage is not significant coverage in multiple reliable independent sources. Claritas § 00:15, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::* But what about http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/p/139/avalon ; http://www.comicspace.com/raerae/ ; http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Avalon_webcomic ; and most notably http://www.tangmonkey.com/columns/98997953526130.php ? All of those sources are independent, and with regards to reliability, one has to assess the likelyhood of anyone wanting to forge information about a comic... I'd say it's rather minimal. Also, the nature of the topic of the article (webcomic) means that there probably will never be a scientific article written on it, and it's quite likely that it won't make the front page of New York Times either, yet to have a wide selection of smaller web-based sources is in my opinion still encouraging. Last but not least, what I meant by "it makes a good encyclopeadic topic" is that "one can write a nice article about it"... in fact... I think there already IS a nice article about it. DubZog (talk) 00:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::* Read WP:RS and WP:NOTEVERYTHING. We're trying to make an encyclopaedia, not a crass directory of every single semi-verifiable piece of information. Claritas § 00:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::: I have read WP:RS a long time ago :) However, I don't believe that sticking to it WORD-FOR-WORD every single time is sensible if we want wikipedia to improve. I'm by no means saying that it should be ignored, just that well... it's sensible to look at each case individually and assess what form of verification is actually necessary. DubZog (talk) 01:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::: May I comment on your form here, Claritas, or would that be an unwelcome distraction form the issue? --Kizor 11:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::::By "form", do you mean my formatting ? Claritas § 21:15, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep [http://comixpedia.com/avalon_josh_phillips_reviewed_apis_teicher is a RS review]. Also has won award award from the major webcomic body. (Best School-based Comic and Best Dramatic Comic) Hobit (talk) 00:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Webcomics-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - comixtalk is not a reliable source - it's a blog, and there's a consensus that those awards have absolutely no bearing whatsoever to notability - see the discussion above. Claritas § 10:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• I'll strongly disagree on both. The awards are certainly notable (see last AfD) and comixpedia isn't a SPS, it has a lot of contributors [http://comixpedia.com/contributors] with editorial control over their contributions. Pretty classic (if specialized) RS. Take it to the RS noticeboard if you feel strongly about it. Hobit (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::Awards aren't notable enough - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Goonish Shive (2nd nomination). WP:CCC. Claritas § 10:27, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:::I'm missing any reference to these awards in that discussion. That said, if we want to establish some kind of binding consensus about webcomics, I suggest you do it at WP:COMIC, a single AfD isn't binding on anything else nor does it establish conscious. If it did, I could just point to the last AfD of this comic which plainly accepted the award as meeting WP:WEB... Hobit (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Yes they are. --Kizor 11:08, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Does not meet WP:GNG or WP:WEB. Nothing listed above shows significant coverage in reliable sources independent of this topic. I'll go through each of these sources.

1. [http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/p/139/avalon http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/p/139/avalon] - The web Comic List is intended to be a list of all webcomics, and anyone can get their webcomic listed there. See [http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/about.php http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/about.php] and [http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/suggest.php http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/suggest.php], "Will you list my comic? Certainly, just use the suggest a comic page to add comics to the site," and "If you want to see your comic or a comic you read appear on The Webcomic List then please enter the it's details below! ... Your comic will be added to the list straight away."
2. [http://www.comicspace.com/raerae/ http://www.comicspace.com/raerae/] - This is this webcomic creators' user profile on a social networking site. It's like myspace for comics; anyone can create a profile on this site. See [http://www.comicspace.com/faq.php http://www.comicspace.com/faq.php], "ComicSpace is a social networking site for comic fans and creators. It's kind of like MySpace, but for comic enthusiasts." And see [http://www.comicspace.com/memlist.php http://www.comicspace.com/memlist.php] where there are over 45,000 other members.
3. [http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Avalon_webcomic http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Avalon_webcomic] is a wikipedia mirror. See [http://www.servinghistory.com/pages/about http://www.servinghistory.com/pages/about], "Basically I began with Wikipedia and I use a complex cascade of base code disassemblage, a lot of regular expressions act as enzymes to lyse the Wiki code, determine granular relevancy and reassemble sections based on heuristic algorithms."
4. [http://www.tangmonkey.com/columns/98997953526130.php http://www.tangmonkey.com/columns/98997953526130.php] is an email interview on internet zine, not a reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
5. Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards - trivial web award that is not an indication of notability. If it were, winning such an award would result in coverage by better sources than the above user-submitted lists, social networking profiles and wikipedia mirroring. Specific problems with these awards in relation to this webcomic are that "Avalon was a member of Keenspot" and these awards are hosted by Keenspot, so the award and the webcomic are not independent of each other.
6. [http://comixpedia.com/avalon_josh_phillips_reviewed_apis_teicher http://comixpedia.com/avalon_josh_phillips_reviewed_apis_teicher] - This is not an independent nor a reliable source. It is a "keenspace" webcartoonist writing on a blog about a "keenspot" webcomic. The blog (ComixTalk) is founded by other Keenspot-related cartoonists.

Conclusion: We do not have the multiple significant, independent reliable sources that are needed to write an encyclopedia article. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:* You have ignored the latest addition to the list that made me completely change my mind, http://comixpedia.com/avalon_josh_phillips_reviewed_apis_teicher . Comixtalk is a comics' review site with an extensive list of notable editors, which has been active since 2003 and gained widespread popularity since. DubZog (talk) 19:19, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::*Sorry, I didn't "ignore" it; I simply missed it. That is not an independent nor a reliable source. It is a "keenspace" webcartoonist writing on a blog about a "keenspot" webcomic. The blog (ComixTalk) is founded by other Keenspot-related cartoonists. I've added this to the numbered list above for the sake of readability. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::: No, it is NOT a blog. See http://comixpedia.com/contributors for a list of editors of comixtalk. Note that comixtalk also issues a printed magazine. DubZog (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:::: Sorry, ComixTalk has never issued a printed magazine. See [http://comixtalk.com/node/8169 http://comixtalk.com/node/8169], "There are times I wish we printed Comixpedia magazine on paper." Typing "NOT A BLOG" in all caps does not change the fact that is a self-published website, blog and forum that is not independent of this topic. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 20:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::::: Oh good grief, now I also found out that the webcomic Avalon has a fanclub with a website... I know that you won't care about it because (sorry if it may sound offensive, because it's not intended to be) your world seems to be limited to WP:Notability, yet well... to me it seems like we're trying to delete something that a large number of people undoubtedly care about, and something that provides good information for an encyclopedia article. It's perhaps just a bit unfortunate that no "major" newspaper has picked up on it yet, yet I can't see how one could reasonably cast doubt on its existence or the fact that well... plenty of people care about it, (i.e. notability in the original sense of the word). It looks like we're just proponents of different AfD philosophies, and as such we're bound to end up disagreeing on this issue, hence, with this post I'm over and out. http://community.livejournal.com/avalon_fanclub/ DubZog (talk) 21:13, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:::Come on folks, this is feeling like a case of IDONTLIKEIT, or perhaps "web comics probably aren't notable". The site and awards have been considered acceptable in the past. If you want to argue the awards, take it up with the comics project group. If you want to argue the RS, take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Hobit (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

• That one is boarder-line. Single person in control but many contributors and editorial control exists. I'd say counts as a RS in this context unless you are claiming there is a reasonable expectation the interview was faked. Hobit (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Bah, it's voted on by a well defined group not controlled by keenspot. And your argument about awards means that we should just not have awards mentioned in SNGs as they would be unneeded. Hobit (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Further comment on awards: The Web Cartoonist Choice Awards are not well-known or independent awards. They are little-known webcomic awards created and hosted by webcomic hosting site keenspot/space, voted on by primarily keenspot/spacers, and they give awards to primarily keenspot/space comics. All you have to do to understand this is look at the nominees for "Best School Based-Comic" and "Best Dramatic Comic" for 2001, the awards this comic has won. School-Based comic nominees: Avalon (Keenspot), College Roomies from Hell!!! (Keenspot), Minor Reality (Keenspace), The Class Menagerie (Keenspot), and Blotto Street (Keenspace). Dramatic Comic nomineees: Avalon (Keenspot), Odd Jobs {Keenspace), Clan of the Cats (Keenspot), Fans! (Keenspot), and Wandering Ones (Keenspot). Every single nominee is a keenspot/space comic because these are not independent awards. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 15:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• At the time keenspot was a large % of the on-line comics. In any case, even looking at the 2001 awards I'm not seeing keenspot dominating anything. Only one or two of the nominated comics struck me as keenspot's though I honestly don't recall of them. In any case, I think that the industry, such as it is, takes it seriously. I'm seeing awards for things like Kevin and Kell, Girl G, Schlock and lots of others that had nothing to do with Keenspot AFAIK. Hobit (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• Looking at these 2001 awards, I count keenspot giving themselves awards in 20 out of 24 categories. No, Keenspot has never been "a large % of the on-line comics", it represents only a tiny fraction of all webcomics published in the world. And yes, Schlock Mercenary was hosted by Keenspot. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 22:01, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• Further different comment on awards The Web Cartoonist Choice Awards are very well-known indeed! They are in fact SO well known, that even the New York Times wrote about them, as can be seen here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/17/books/17comi.html?ex=1281931200&en=08e3777cc4943486&ei=5090&partner=geartest&emc=rss . As per this citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Cartoonists'_Choice_Awards#cite_note-1 they, as well as the ComixTalk website, have also been commented upon in this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xo-QYdfL9DoC . Also, although if we counted all the webcomics ever published by anyone, those published under Keenspot would only amount to a tiny fraction, at least according to this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keenspot , it is the single biggest publisher of online webcomics, with the lot of them attracting 50 million pageviews monthly and 600 paying members as of 2002, when they published two times less webcomics than they have done lately. DubZog (talk) 23:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC) (Note that the wikipedia article on Keenspot is well sourced and all the information provided can be traced back to the original sources, I only provided a link to the wikipedia article here for convenience.) DubZog (talk) 23:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep The nominator is incorrect: there is consensus that winning a WCCA does satisfy WP:WEB as a significant award, per the AFD's of Jack (webcomic), Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki, and others. That someone forgot that one time in an AFD does not override that standing precedent. (It also gives a good case for submitting that instance for deletion review.) Dragoneer (talk) 22:06, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.