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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Sobaszkiewicz

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Notability guidelines are retroactive. Articles do not get kept because they qualified under previous guidelines when they were created. I will userfy this article per request. v/r - TP 14:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

=[[Barbara Sobaszkiewicz]]=

:{{la|Barbara Sobaszkiewicz}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Barbara Sobaszkiewicz}})

Fails WP:NTENNIS as has not won an itf 50k+ tournament, played in a WTA International tournament or played in the Fed Cup. Contested PROD, with remover arguing that as the article was created before the new tennis notability guidelines (but complied with the old ones) it should not be subject to the new ones. This recent AfD contradicts that claim. Ravendrop 06:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Delete - I would say the new guidelines should cover the last two seasons in its equivalency with the men. This year (2011) in May she won a $25,000 doubles itf tourney and that's not good enough to be notable. She has never even won a $25,000 singles tourney so that can be thrown out. Prior to 2010 we should probably check what the payouts were as compared to men to check whats compatible with mens challenger series events... however since prior to 2010 she never won anything above a $10,000 entry level grade itf event in either singles or doubles I would say there is no need to check in this case. She is not qualified to be listed as notable in tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 00:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Keep - In May, when she won a 25K tournament in doubles the guideline criteria confirmed her to be notable. The NTENNIS clearly says: This guideline applies equally to singles and doubles players. I think we should apply these new NTENNIS criteria to newly created articles. (Gabinho>:) 08:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC))

::Really? Should we then include all the men's itf tournies for the same time period to keep everything fair? That is what we are trying to do on wikipedia correct? Because otherwise the ladies from 2009–2011 are much more notable than the men. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:38, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

:::Really. The men's ITF tournaments are ranked bellow Women's. Per example the highst ranked ITF men's tournament (15,000$ + H) rewards the winner with 33 points. The 25K (25,000$) level ITF Women's tourament rewards the winner with 50 points. There can be no comparison between them. If a female competitor, let's say, wins 6 of these 25K tournaments over one year she gathers 300 points which is enough to place her in Top200. That's notable. In my opinion 25K female tournaments are notable and they should't be removed from the critera in the first place. (Gabinho>:) 09:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC))

::::Ok. I did more research on this subject. First I had miscounted the tournaments so that may sway things a bit. Sorry. You would think that to be notable in tennis you should have done something a little out of the ordinary. It's a job for many like working for the fire department. The WTA tour has 59 tournaments and the ATP tour has 68 tournaments. Pretty close. Every tournament and every player that has ever played in those tournaments (even qualifiers) is notable by our standards. That's every player in every draw, every year. Every equivalent value tournament and player from 60+ years ago is also notable. I think that's a minimum of 32 players per event up to 128+. That's a lot of players but they should be notable.

::::The Men's Challenger tour has about 150 tournaments ranging from $35,000 to $150,000 total prize money. Tretorn sponsors the 13 events that pay over $100,000. These are pros in this tour but imho at least the bottom half is not very noteworthy. 150 tournaments and any male player winning one, even a $35,000 total payout event, is notable on wikipedia. That's weird. Those $100,000+ events sound more reasonably notable to me. Maybe if you win 6-8 of the $35,000 events, but winning one is nothing very special in the history of the sport. If you got rid of all the events that payout less than $50,000 you'd still have 100 tournaments.

::::The Ladies don't have a challenger tour, just a massive itf tour. And that's where the balancing comes in. They have $10,000 and $25,000 events but the next total payout on the itf tour is $50,000. The ladies don't have anything in between $25,000 and $50,000 like the men do. it would be easy if they had lots of $35,000 purses but they don't. If you include all the $25,000+ events there are about 220 of them. Way more than the guys, and I already feel that half of the guys events aren't notable for winners. If we dump the $25,000 events for the ladies we are left with about 80 tournaments of the $50,000 plus variety. Unfortunately that's much less than the men's 150 which we at wikipedia have found as noteworthy for winners. For perspective if they were both cut off at $50,000 there would be 100 events for the guys and 80 for the gals.

::::I had miscounted the guys events when changing some guidelines and I thought it was much closer to the ladies totals. So with the $25,000 events included its 220 ladies tournies to 150 mens tournies. Without the $25,000 events it's 80 ladies tournies to 150 mens tournies. Either way you do it one side or the other gets shorted in tryingto make things fair. So Gabino mentions comparing points given out. He said the $25,000 ITF ladies event winners get 50 points and that 6 wins brings them within the top 200 players. Ok lets look at the bottom of the mens Challengers, that's the $35,000 tournament payout. This is the lowest notability for men. Winning one of these gives 75 points (80 points if it supplies food and shelter). Winning 3 of these (according to the wikipedia article) will put a male in the top 200 players in the world. The lowest win on the men's challenger tour, which is the lowest notability we have for men, is far more important than a $25,000 ITF ladies victory. That is why I set the standards at a $50,000 victory for the ladies to be notable. Yes in my opinion that is still too low a threshold for notability in tennis. Anyone who has seen my edits on talk pages knows this. But my reasoning for raising the ladies threshold to a $50,000 ITF win was to make it relatively equal to the men for the sake of casual wiki readers and their limited tennis knowledge. I thought I did that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::You have a strong case here. Your explication is reasonable. Ok, then I request to userify this article until this tennis player becomes notable. When this happens I will request a move to namespace. (Gabinho>:) 22:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC))

::::::lol...what's funny is after reading your post about the ladies point values you got me thinking that maybe I was too hasty in changing things... your post made me re-add up all those points and count all those tournaments. It took about an hour but that's where I found my error from months ago where I was off by 25 tournaments. When you say userify what does that mean? Do you keep it in your own userspace or does wikipedia put it someplace safe? I guess I've never done that but it sure sounds like a good idea so that no one would have to re-write it from scratch if and when the time comes. There are a few articles I asked to be deleted that I felt within a year they likely would become notable. I'll have to ask about how to do it. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

KEEP I don't think we should put qualifiers on it all wins on the ITF, ATP, WTA Tours should be enough for notability.The Gypsy Vagabond Man (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:Which would be so much against wiki notability policy it wouldn't even be funny. Those low level events have winners checks of a few hundred dollars and 15 year old kids. We are trying to be reasonable here. Notability means you are probably outstanding in your field. I think it goes way to far as it is, but I'm willing to work within the system of consensus. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.