Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beshir Imanov (2nd nomination)

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:{{la|1=Beshir Imanov}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

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Doesn't pass WP:GNG. This person wasn't a general and a Hero of Socialist Labo, it is confirmed. Imanov was a colonel and a police chief (confirmed with notable sources) and hadn't any other remarkable positions and awards. There have been several discussions about wrong informations and questionable sources about this person in azwiki and as a result, this article has been deleted. [https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Silinm%C9%99y%C9%99_namiz%C9%99d_s%C9%99hif%C9%99l%C9%99r/Arxiv/2023_Avqust#B%C9%99%C5%9Fir_%C4%B0manov This is the discussion for deletion in Azerbaijani Wikipedia] Surə ^🗯 19:21, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Police, and Azerbaijan. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Delete. This is a promotional piece rife with outright falsehoods, written by one of his descendants who has an obvious WP:COI, who also happens to be the author of [https://web.archive.org/web/20161120150950/http://adam.az/index.php?option=com_sobi2&sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=0&sobi2Id=2678&Itemid=66 this] article that these claims are sourced to. Many of the keep !voters cited sources that allowed him to clear GNG... I'm not sure where those sources are. The article was speedied on tr.wiki twice, and has now been deleted on az.wiki as well. The [https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Silinm%C9%99y%C9%99_namiz%C9%99d_s%C9%99hif%C9%99l%C9%99r/Arxiv/2022_Avqust#B%C9%99%C5%9Fir_%C4%B0manov first AfD on az.wiki] is quite informative about the sheer extent of the falsehoods here, including an examination of sources that reveals he has not received the Hero of Socialist Labour award. --GGT (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Storg Keep Please see the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Beshir_Imanov discussion page] before posting. An article should not be deleted because of personal bias. You will answer for what you did in the Azerbaijan section - [https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:B%C9%99rpa_%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCn_namiz%C9%99d_s%C9%99hif%C9%99l%C9%99r/Arxiv/2023_%C4%B0yun#B%C9%99%C5%9Fir_%C4%B0manov the article was restored], and you deliberately deleted the article - the candidate is meant. The information about the person is completely encyclopedic. You don't see the [https://apnews.com/press-release/ein-presswire-newsmatics/azerbaijan-azerbaijan-government-064999b58f4bd8353532264443e11860 Associated Press] source? See Azerbaijani sources. [https://thenews.az/bashir-imanovs-contributions-to-azerbaijans-independence-and-security-1914-1969/ thenews.az], [https://karabakhnews.com/a-profile-of-bashir-imanov-1914-1969-a-key-figure-in-azerbaijani-security/ karabakhnews.com], [https://konkret.az/general-rutbesi-alsa-da-bunu-dasimaq-ona-nesib-olmadi-besir-imanovun-heyati-foto/ encyclopedicity is obvious based on the number of all indexed publications. konkret.az] [https://pravda.az/news/112101 pravda.az], [https://modern.az/az/news/187252/abs-da-yasayan-general-nevesinin-heyat-yoldasi-miciqanda-ozel-klinikasi-olan-azerbaycanli modern.az], [https://kanal17.org/gundem/358-tarixin-izi-il.html kanal17.org], [https://www.jerusalemdailyjournal.com/article/648359517-honoring-the-life-and-contributions-of-beshir-imanov-a-beacon-of-patriotism-and-dedication The latest news from Israel - jerusalem daily journal] Sources appear to be sufficient for WP:GNG. @{{u|Necrothesp}}, @{{u|Atchom}}, @{{u|Stifle}} There are those who confirm this in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Beshir_Imanov previous discussion]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.190.173 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• :Note: This IP is probably User:Elshad Iman (Elşad İman), who was blocked on several wikis for abusing multiple accounts and undisclosed paid-editing, as you can see here: SPI case and SUL. Now he started threatening wikipedians. NMW03 (talk) 17:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• :Comment. The only thing on the article's talk page is a note that a COI editor contributed to making the article. This corroborates what {{u|GGT}} said above; in that light, I'm not clear why the IP says that's a reason for a strong keep. —C.Fred (talk) 11:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 03:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• :Reply: When searching, it appears in other [https://www.vetensesi.az/page/18/news/3786 sources], [https://redaksiya.az/besir-imanov-1914-1969-ssri-herbi-xidmetinin-ve-tehlukesizlik-orqanlarinin-ugurlu-temsilcisi/ another source], where is the failed here and what? [https://ibb.co/NWTVZGj A letter] written to his family during the USSR. [https://ibb.co/r5drHP1 Archive document] of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, reply letter received [https://ibb.co/YLc6JyT from Moscow]. These are all 1st grade sources and evidence.
• :He is encyclopedic as the author of [https://www.studentsteachersandprofessors.com/article/648359517-honoring-the-life-and-contributions-of-beshir-imanov-a-beacon-of-patriotism-and-dedication military textbooks].85.132.29.163 (talk) 08:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• ::The last two are primary sources rather than "1st grade". —C.Fred (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Keep There appears to be SIGCOV in several secondary sources: e.g. [https://redaksiya.az/besir-imanov-1914-1969-ssri-herbi-xidmetinin-ve-tehlukesizlik-orqanlarinin-ugurlu-temsilcisi/ here] and [https://apnews.com/press-release/ein-presswire-newsmatics/azerbaijan-azerbaijan-government-064999b58f4bd8353532264443e11860 here]. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 09:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• :is it ok if ref is press-release? 45.15.43.114 (talk) 12:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• Keep It certainly passes WP:GNG. I agree with @{{u|Ficaia}} that this meets WP:SIGCOV. Per the large number of good refs.--Jasulan.T ^{TT me} 11:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
• Delete Quantity of refs does not equal quality. Puffery and inflation of accomplishments. AP Press wire release that praises Lavrenty Beria and is written in an exaggerated tone is not a reliable source. Articles like the [https://redaksiya.az/besir-imanov-1914-1969-ssri-herbi-xidmetinin-ve-tehlukesizlik-orqanlarinin-ugurlu-temsilcisi/ Redaksiya] one are just inflating jubilee medal awards that all Soviet (para)military personnel received into something significant. Despite the promotion effort Imanov is no more notable than any other midlevel bureaucrat. Kges1901 (talk) 11:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

:Keep A person is considered encyclopedic as the author of military textbooks. He played a role in historical events and sources are seems reliable. Look carefully on the Internet for information about this person, maybe there is an electronic encyclopedia about him. Also - we should not judge the personalities of our contemporaries and the past by the same criteria, that is, I mean that there may be a lack of sources, because the press of that time reflected events in newspapers, there were no websites at that time. The importance of the individual is valid according to the personalities of the #Past. Redaksiya (talk) 11:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

::I read multiple military textbooks and manuals. I never associated them with notability - or memorability.

::Maybe the Soviets had better writers?

::—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 23:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

:::I just looked at a browser translation of the Azeri deletion discussion cited above. Azeri must be hard for machines; my 2 favorite !votes were:

:::*{{tq|”Have you given a voice in favor of the bark?”}}

:::*{{tq|”Let it be wiped out: I consent with the hives.”}}

:::Much of the rest was less intelligible and I was unable to figure out the comments. Maybe somebody can get a better translation.

:::—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 00:37, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

::::@A. B., When reading the [https://www.ebooks.az/book_poIiN3w4.html source here - Azerbaijani literature], it becomes clear that he also worked as a teacher.

::::I also read the posts on the [https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:B%C9%99rpa_%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCn_namiz%C9%99d_s%C9%99hif%C9%99l%C9%99r/Arxiv/2023_%C4%B0yun#B%C9%99%C5%9Fir_%C4%B0manov discussion page for recovery]. A reliable source like [https://aztv.az/az AzTV] has a radio program about him, listen to the [https://www.mixcloud.com/Aztv/h%C9%99rb-tariximizd%C9%99n/ radio broadcast].

::::Significant participation in the creation of large reference publications, the preparation of textbooks for primary, secondary and higher schools, in demand outside the educational institution where the author worked. There are minimum requirements for WP:AUTHOR Jasulan.T ^{TT me} 05:28, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::If he wrote other textbooks besides military textbooks, that’s a bit different.

:::::In the West, military manuals are usually assigned to a person or committee to write. The assignment is usually more about who’s available than who’s an expert.

:::::In the Soviet era, I’m guessing that anything significant, policy or tactics-wise, came out of some central bureau in Moscow, and wasn’t written by the local police.

:::::These are guesses on my part.

:::::—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 08:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

::::::@A. B. It's worth noting that these statements carry an element of speculation, and the actual processes in place may exhibit some variations from the descriptions provided. In reality, the intricacies of such matters tend to be quite complex and multifaceted, making it challenging to make broad generalizations with certainty. I stand by my position, the article can be kept. Jasulan.T ^{TT me} 10:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::::As I already said above, “these are guesses on my part”.

:::::::I haven’t had time to dig into the sources yet, so I haven’t expressed an opinion about deleting the article.

:::::::I was simply responding to the assertion that preparing military textbooks contributed to Imanov’s notability.

:::::::Show me the textbooks he wrote were somehow different from run-of-the-mill government textbooks and I’ll happily change my mind.

:::::::—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 13:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

::::::::There is also no proof that he actually wrote any textbooks, especially as the PR Newswire article that is copied in many of the sources describes the titles of medals differently from their actual names: {{xt| Eminent among these accolades gleamed the "Sentinel of the Caucasus" medal in 1944, the "Triumphant Overlord of German Soil" medal in 1945, and the coveted "Supreme Servant" 1st-degree medal in 1961.}} These are mistranslations of the names of run of the mill Soviet medals awarded for participation or just having been in the military/state bureaucracy at a specific time given to hundreds of thousands of recipients. Kges1901 (talk) 12:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::The names of the medals are shown correctly in the [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16819136 wikidata]. 5.191.106.25 (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::Keep He worked as the first deputy in the Azerbaijani branch of the Ministry of State Security of the USSR. Shortly after Nikita Khrushchev came to power in 1953, he was removed from this post and appointed head of the Militia Department named after Lavrenty Beria. Medal "For the Defence of the Caucasus", Medal "For the Victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War 1941–1945", Medal "For Labour Valour" , Jubilee Medal "30 Years of the Soviet Army and Navy", Jubilee Medal "Twenty Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War 1941–1945", Medal "For excellent service in the protection of public order", Medal "For Impeccable Service", 1st class - The owner of all these listed medals and a person holding a high post of state importance in the USSR, I consider an encyclopedist.--Mehdi Fayyazli (Talk) 10:02, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:24, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Keep Of course, I rarely participate in discussions, but I happened to notice that this discussion has occurred for the second time. It seems that information obtained from primary sources provides a more detailed and objective description.--Erokhin (talk) 08:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Delete: Fails GNG and BIO. My BEFORE indicates this individual is a nothing special run of the mill Soviet police chief that pleased their superiors and had the Soviet bug for medal collecting. All the sources I see fail IS RS SIGCOV addressing the subject impartially, directly and indepth, and are just based primary or regurgitated primary puff. As for press coverage, you don't become a Soviet police chief without controlling the press per NKVD101, and biographies in Soviet era encyclopedias are just highly censored government entries for government officials. Nothing meets IS, RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth.  // Timothy :: talk  19:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
• Delete: fails WP:GNG, WP:BIO nd no significant coverage Worldiswide (talk) 06:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :{{U|Ficaia}} and {{u|Stifle}} It would be wrong to say that the person who worked as a doctor of technical sciences, author of textbooks and head of department of the USSR does not meet the encyclopedic criteria. Keep: Diverse and independent sources of information proves the encyclopedic nature of man. It provides the most complete and objective understanding, covering such important information as human life, education, professional activities and their impact on the environment. I finde a new sources [https://www.7news.az/az/tarixin-izi-ile-besir-imanovun-heyat-yoluna-qisa-seyahet/ 7news.az], [https://icmal.az/tarixin-izi-ile-besir-imanovun-heyat-yoluna-qisa-seyahet/ icmal.az], [https://shushapost.az/az/tarixin-izi-ile-besir-imanovun-heyat-yoluna-qisa-seyahet/ shushapost.az], [https://lobbi.az/az/tarixin-izi-ile-besir-imanovun-heyat-yoluna-qisa-seyahet/ lobbi.az] 5.191.138.252 (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• ::Can be Kept: Encyclopedias do not "force" the inclusion or exclusion of specific articles or individuals. The decision to include or exclude content in an encyclopedia is typically made by the editors or administrators based on established criteria and guidelines. These criteria aim to ensure that the content meets certain standards of notability, verifiability, neutrality, and overall relevance to the subject matter of the encyclopedia.
• :::Editors and administrators carefully evaluate the content to maintain the integrity and quality of the encyclopedia. They may consider factors such as the subject's significance, coverage in reliable sources, and overall contribution to the field or topic being covered. The goal is to provide accurate, reliable, and comprehensive information for readers.
• ::While encyclopedias strive to be objective and impartial, the final decision on article inclusion is subjective to some extent, as it relies on human judgment and interpretation of the established criteria. However, these decisions are generally made in the best interest of the encyclopedia and its readers, aiming to provide a valuable and informative resource. 5.191.113.161 (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment The previous two 'keep' votes appear to come from the same IP range, and are the only edits by either IP. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.