Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Adamaitis

:{{la|Bill Adamaitis}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [http://toolserver.org/~snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bill_Adamaitis Stats])

:({{Find sources|Bill Adamaitis}})

Non-notable college and semi-pro football player. Subject not entitled to a presumption of notability under the specific guidelines of WP:NCOLLATH (no major awards, etc.) or WP:NGRIDIRON (never played regular season game in NFL or other top-tier league). Notwithstanding assertions in article and linked obituary that subject played for NFL's Washington Redskins, NFL.com (see [http://www.nfl.com/players/search?category=name&filter=Bill+Adamaitis&playerType=historical here]) and Pro-Football-Reference.com (see [http://www.pro-football-reference.com/player_search.fcgi?search=Adamaitis here]) confirm no player by that name ever played in the NFL. Random fan site confirms subject did play for the semi-pro "Washington Presidents" in 1937 (see [http://www.profootballarchives.com/1937dflwas.html here]), thus the obvious confusion. There is insufficient in-depth coverage of the subject in multiple, independent, reliable sources to satisfy the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG. Please note that college team media guides, fan sites, blogs, etc., do not count, and WP:ROUTINE and trivial mentions don't establish GNG notability, either. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 09:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. NickGibson3900 - Talk - Sign my Guestbook 10:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. NickGibson3900 - Talk - Sign my Guestbook 10:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Keep article claims he played in the NFL for the Washington Redskins. The source could be better, but until that is shown otherwise I'm good with it for now.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:06, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

:*{{Ping|Paulmcdonald}} The two best sources we have for NFL player records, NFL.com and Pro-Football-Reference.com, both confirm that Adamaitis never played a down for the Washington Redskins (please see links above). Subject did play for the semi-pro Washington Presidents (not Redskins) in 1937; confusion is obvious. Moreover, what you're calling an "article" is not a reliable source; it's a privately maintained website of memorials and obituaries. Please review. WP:BEFORE homework has been done. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:16, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Records are notoriously hard to retrieve from the the pre-modern days of college, and even pro, football. Even harder now that Google News Archive is no longer operational. I'll investigate a bit and see what I can come up with. Cbl62 (talk) 18:53, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

:*{{Ping|Cbl62}} NFL.com's player information is excellent, dating back to the 1920s and including the various leagues that merged into the NFL, and that information is duplicated and expanded upon by Pro-Football-Reference.com. This article was built on a blurb from Find-a-Grave -- not a reliable source per WP:RS. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Switch to Delete that's what I was looking for (and figured it was coming) but was willing to give some good faith on the original article. You're right, though... find-a-gravei is very weak indeed.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep. I've now reworked the article substantially and am persuaded that Adamaitis passes WP:GNG, WP:NGRIDIRON. The guy led his team to the 1936 Orange Bowl and was the star of the game, passing for and receiving a touchdown pass in an upset over the SEC team. He was also a sufficiently elite player to be selected as the starting left halfback on the 1937 College Football All-Star team and led the only scoring drive for the college all-stars against the NFL champions. Although he did not play for the Redskins, he did play professional football for the Washington Presidents of the Dixie League. The Presidents were actually the first professional football team in the national capital. The Dixie League was fully professional, and there's a nice write up about the league [https://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coffin_Corner/10-An-356.pdf here]. Adamaitis was a starting halfback for the Presidents and led the team with his passing to the 1937 Dixie League championship. This should qualify him under WP:NGRIDIRON. IMO, and although it's VERY difficult to dig up newspaper coverage from the 1930s, he appears to have had sufficient non-trivial coverage to pass WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 22:27, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

:*Not buying it without links to significant coverage, Cbl. I spent two hours going through everything produced by a "Bill Adamaitis" Google search. I saw nothing that qualified as both "independent" and "significant" -- and nothing more than a sentence or two here and there. We may have to fight about this one. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

::: The problem is that a "google" search is not an adequate check for someone who played in the 1930s. The vast majority of the material from that era is either off-line, hidden behind pay walls, and doesn't turn up on a google search. I think the coverage that has been revealed is plenty sufficient and, given his high level of achievement, there is almost certainly much more that is not easily retrieved. We can't agree on all of them. Cbl62 (talk) 00:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

::::Cbl, you've got multiple problems: The Washington Post articles all count as a single source, and as best I can tell, all constitute WP:ROUTINE post-game coverage. The Post was also local coverage for Catholic University, and is discounted at least somewhat in any event. There is no WP:NGRIDIRON presumption in favor of notability because the Dixie League was a minor league. Best independent sources for establishing notability are the random papers covering the 1936 Orange Bowl, and that coverage seems like ROUTINE post-game coverage, too. This looks like what it is: an article stitched together from game coverage and non-independent sources. That works fine for a coach or professional player entitled to a presumption of notability per WP:NGRIDIRON, but we're stretching to do so under a full-blown WP:GNG analysis. It's not the worst I've seen, but we're stretching. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

::::: I vote "delete" on most college athlete afds, but Adamaitis ends up as a clear keep IMO. He achieved at the highest level of college football, but because it was the 1930s, coverage is harder to find. The coverage that has been found, from major daily newspapers like the Washington Post, New York Times, Boston Globe, Miami News', etc., goes beyond routine passing references. Those sources discuss Adamaitis as one of the game's leading passers, a recipient of national honors, and the star of many of the important games, including the 1936 Orange Bowl and 1937 College All-Star game. If we were discussing someone who achieved at that level in college football of the past 10 years, the coverage would be ridiculously extensive and way easier to find. Still, plenty to pass GNG already IMO. As for the "Dixie League" being a "minor league", the difference between pro football leagues was often marginal in the 20s and 30s. The NFL had only 10 teams with players playing both offense and defense (the total NFL roster in 1937 was probably around 120 players compared to 1,000 today). Moreover, the Dixie League was a fully professional league, not "semi-pro" as you asserted above. There are so many modern players whose achievement level and press coverage don't warrant a separate article that I'm actually kind of surprised that you decided to single out someone like Adamaitis for an afd. Cbl62 (talk) 00:52, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. Article has been reworked and expanded substantially. Serten (talk) 12:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:14, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Keep Post overhaul I am satisfied this meets the criteria for inclusion. Acather96 (click here to contact me) 11:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.