Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camille Bonora

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:{{la|Camille Bonora}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Camille_Bonora Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Camille Bonora}})

This has been deleted three separate times for having no credible ascertation of notability. This time, I'm proposing that it be deleted AND WP:SALTed so we don't have to waltz this waltz a fourth time. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:50, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - Unless I'm missing something, the subject may be at least somewhat notable. I have found some non-trivial coverage in books, for example [https://books.google.com/books?id=DkJtDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT55&q=Camille+Bonora][https://books.google.com/books?id=cj3ZAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Camille+Bonora] and this from Sesame Street Magazine [https://books.google.com/books?id=XDfhAAAAMAAJ&q=Camille+Bonora]. I'm vacillating between weak keep and weak delete, but I'll wait to hear from others before casting my !vote.- MrX 🖋
• Comment - Would co-founding Kairos contribute towards meeting WP:ACADEMIC#8? Thsmi002 (talk) 12:47, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Thsmi002 (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Thsmi002 (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

• Delete and WP:SALT per nom. Really a fourth deletion discussion shouldn't be needed. WCM_email 12:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Keep She clearly has performed in non-trivial roles in a number of notable movies and television shows. The article is hardly great, but it passes WP:GNG, and it getting deleted repeatedly is not going to help it grow. I think it keeps getting recreated because she's clearly notable. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about {{#expr:{{User:Adam Cuerden/Current FP total}}/{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Featured pictures|files|R}}*100 round 1}}% of all FPs} 20:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Delete. I'm hard-pressed to find widespread RS for her. Obviously Sesame Street Magazine would have an article about her. Otherwise, I see a few passing mentions in books saying that she voiced this or that character. This doesn't meet GNG. Yoninah (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• delete I don't think co-founding Kairos makes her notable. I also don't believe she meets the notability standards for actors or authors. Finally, I don't see the significant independent coverage to meet the GNG. A Muppet puppeteer being mentioned in Sesame Street magazine is not independent. There are a few passing mentions, but that's not enough to show notability.Sandals1 (talk) 19:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Keep I believe that she does meet WP:NACTOR, having had "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions" - the article lists multiple notable films and shows, over at least an 11 year period (1985-1996). - and WP:NACTOR specifically includes voice actors, which presumably can be extended to puppeteers/voice actors. She probably also meets #2 "Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following." I don't see how #2 is to be established without reference to magazines and websites related to the shows or the person. I also found this book, For Such a Time as This: Kampouris and Kairos [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=DkJtDwAAQBAJ&dq=%22Camille+Bonora%22&source=gbs_navlinks_s] (which I see another editor found), which will not count to establish notability as it was written by an editor of Kairos, but does have information on Bonora's childhood and career. My understanding of the Additional notability criteria is that they exist because in some fields there is not likely to be SIGCOV of the person, and therefore criteria are established for deciding whether someone in those fields is notable. Someone who was a puppeteer/voice actor should surely be assessed against WP:NACTOR. RebeccaGreen (talk) 02:49, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep She worked many of the recurring puppets appearing on Sesame Street, including better-known ones such as Goldilocks, Clementine, Meryl Sheep and others; she is also one of the few female Muppeteers that was with the troupe, working alongside Richard Hunt, Steve Whitmire and more. She directly influenced Joey Mazzarino (Murray monster performer) and writer (Muppets from Space, much Elmo content) to join the Muppeteers, through a class she taught. If the article is deleted, I am definitely against SALTing because I think the best source of info about her will be more from other people's articles and books - possibly even from Jim Henson's "Red Book" diary. There is definitely a "fandom" around the Muppets and their performers, I just think there will need to be extra digging to get some more sources that will be helpful. http://www.muppetcentral.com/forum/threads/camille-bonora-appreciation-thread.59469/ shows some potential areas to find content for her article. LovelyLillith (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
• You've misunderstood the request for salt, its not being requested here to keep her off permanently, its being requested until we can decisively show she has the credible assertation of notability to be on site. Sometimes people are eligible for inclusion and fall short, they need that extra push to get across the finish line and thats whats happened here. The article's come back with the same content and citations several times, if it is to stay it needs better content and more citations. TomStar81 (Talk) 18:45, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

:::I've taken a stab at improving the article with what I could find and access in a day and a half. Hopefully, it helps. LovelyLillith (talk) 18:26, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: the closing admin must discount the views above which say that the page should be deleted because it has been three times already. The page has been deleted twice under CSD and once under BLPPROD—in each previous case, what was being assessed was the current state of the article. In AfD, what matters is the notability of the subject, regardless of the current state of the article. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 11:56, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

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:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.