Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Carmichael (musician)

:{{la|Chris Carmichael (musician)}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Chris_Carmichael_(musician) Stats])

:({{Find sources|Chris Carmichael (musician)}})

Apparently the AllMusic reference with over 600 credits makes this subject notable. I'm not so sure. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent|lambast 11:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent|lambast 11:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep – The musician is notable. The references provided are now clear. [http://www.bgdailynews.com/amplifier/music/revisitations-chris-carmichael/article_11812b79-ea56-58f5-8019-7e7cee639633.html][http://www.bgdailynews.com/amplifier/features/chris-carmichael/article_769a832a-68da-5f32-99eb-21afb0db8d40.html]. --Bdboyc (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

:: I withdrawal my Delete and turn it to a Keep, according to references given. --Bdboyc (talk) 12:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

References updated (Now correctly lead to citation Website pages.

1. [http://www.bgamplifier.com/music/chris-carmichael/article_fd64bd42-7042-5b11-9779-0376fbbf6d13.html]

2. [http://www.bgamplifier.com/music/revisitations-chris-carmichael/article_eee92e2e-57c5-54ef-9053-ee4d6999e0a6.html] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 21:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep - Chris Carmichael (musician) is a notable musician according to Wikipedia guidelines

In his list of credits at Allmusic http://www.allmusic.com/artist/chris-carmichael-mn0000124778/credits) - (a reliable source for verifiability) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums/Sources - he is listed as having performed strings on the movie "The Sapphires" He is also listed at IMDB http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1674427/ for this film (with arranging credit in addition to the performance) and other films.

Article 10 of satisfying the requirements of musical notability states...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)

10. "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc."

The Sapphires film has won 20 International awards (notable)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sapphires_(film)

Many other examples could be made by accessing the external links provided on the Chris Carmichael (musician) page. ````Magoobin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 21:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

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Meets another requirement of notability

Article 1 of Criteria for Musicians and ensembles for notability states...

"Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.

(note) 3. "The published works must be someone else writing about the song/single. The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself (or of its artist, record label, vendor or agent) have actually considered the song/single notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it."

Chris Carmichael (musician) performed on the soundtrack of Shrek 2 , the highest grossing film of 2004 - reference this press release from Highbeam Music Trades Super-sensitive has supporting role in Shrek.(Products News) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 18:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• So now you're saying that everyone who performed on the soundtrack should have an article? It's self-promotion and doesn't appear in the IMDB article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• No, I'm saying that the musician satisfies another requirement per Wikipedia's guidelines. Magoobin (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin
• Also, the reference is not "self promotion" - it is promotion from an industry trade about the subject you nominated for deletion. Since your nomination, the Allmusic database has grown by another 10 credits. Now getting very close to 700 recording credits - http://www.allmusic.com/artist/chris-carmichael-mn0000124778/credits Magoobin (talk)! Magoobin
• You're creating a precedent using that trivial entry. It's really not clear what the subject's role in relation to that film's soundtrack is based on that short article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• On the contrary, the subject's role is made very clear - here is the quote from Highbeam: "Chris Carmichael, a long-time Super-Sensitive Musical String Co. endorser, performs a string arrangement of the David Bowie song "Changes," which is played in its entirety in the movie." Whatever your beef is with this musician, all of your protestations do not detract from his notability nor from the fact that he fulfills notability requirements.Magoobin (talk) 13:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin
• What does "performs a string arrangement" mean? Was he the viola player? Did he conduct the strings section? Did he play the entire string arrangement on a keyboard that was connected to a synthesizer or sound bank that emulated the sound of a string section? It's not clear to me at least. If you ever state that I have a bias against this subject again I will be forced to report you for making a personal attack. I'm tired of your commentary and suggestion that I have a bias when the material you're offing in weak and I'm simply seeking clarification. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Good sir, it is not my intention to quibble with you, rather to help provide you with clarity; and if by doing so you become annoyed, I'm sorry. The answer to your question is provided in one of the subject's provided references and states..."

..."Utilizing modern technology, much of Carmichael’s work is done in his home studio and provided to collaborators via the internet. He has contributed arrangements and performances to several Grammy winning records including Steve Earle’s The Revolution Starts Now and Beautiful Dreamer: The Songs of Stephen Foster...In addition, his arrangements and performances can be heard on songs in major motion pictures such as The Rookie, Shrek II and Role Models as well as throughout Edward Norton’s Down In The Valley.

Carmichael’s arrangements and performances have appeared on live television with Tim McGraw and Def Leppard. And he has written orchestral arrangements that have been performed by top tier organizations like the Boston Pops.

• According to Chris, “My primary role these days is as an arranger who happens to be able to flesh out his own arrangements to create authentic sounding large ensembles"...
• A quick check of his Allmusic credits demonstrates that he performs his arrangements with real instruments - violins, violas and cellos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 15:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• I'm not entirely sure what question it is that you're answering, but it's not the one I asked. I'll assume that it's my fault. The source provided to support his involvement in the Shrek 2 soundtrack is poor because it doesn't answer the questions. As for http://www.allmusic.com/artist/chris-carmichael-mn0000124778/credits, and the remainder of the AllMusic material, it doesn't demonstrate that he performs his arrangements with real instruments as arrangements are not usually performed by a single musician. Also arrangers don't usually perform the music: they simply arrange the music. It does show individual instrument names in some instances. However the Shrek 2 reference doesn't discuss that at all. It's two sentences long and goes into no detail. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Chris Carmichael (musician) satisfies yet another requirement for notability

• Article 1. of the Criteria for musicians and ensembles states…

"Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1]

This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries..."

The following newspaper articles (also appearing online) on the subject satisfy the requirement for notability.

http://www.bgamplifier.com/music/chris-carmichael/article_fd64bd42-7042-5b11-9779-0376fbbf6d13.html

http://www.bgamplifier.com/music/revisitations-chris-carmichael/article_eee92e2e-57c5-54ef-9053-ee4d6999e0a6.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 17:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment They're not clearly independent of the subject. Not sure that bgamplifier.com is sufficiently reliable either. The first is non-trivial, but the second doesn't really reach that mark. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Fair enough, though I see the last two links as clearly independent and non trivial as they are devoted entirely to the subject as opposed to trivial mentions such as these from Pop Matters on the records of others. (Josh Rouse) http://www.popmatters.com/review/rousejosh-nashville/

(Steve Ward) http://www.popmatters.com/review/wardsteve-seeandbeseen/ Magoobin (talk) 12:52, 24 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin

• Comments about the subject indeed being the performer of his arrangements as per the statements by Walter Görlitz

• The following links illustrate that the subject does indeed perform his own arrangements - which I agree with Mr. Görlitz, is highly unusual.

http://www.thebluesblast.com/Archive/BluesBlasts/2009/BluesBlast10_28_09.htm

Featured Blues Review 4 of 5 regarding Seth Walker clearly states..."He is backed by a solid group that includes award-winning Canadian guitarist Colin Linden and Kevin McKendree on keyboards. Several tracks feature a string section with all the parts played and arranged by Chris Carmichael."

• This, from the magazine No Depression http://archives.nodepression.com/2008/01/jennifer-niceley-luminous/ also sheds some light...

'She draws on the blues for personal strength, and on string sections — meticulously and soulfully arranged and performed by Chris Carmichael — for grace. Those strings turn Bobby Blue Bland’s “Blind Man” into “Blind Woman”, and along with Niceley’s darting and lingering phrasing, transform the song into a drama that both Bobbie Gentry and Nina Simone would recognize."

This article from Pure Music is very detailed about the process... http://www.puremusic.com/swandive6.html

This also explains that the subject arranges, performs and records his work - in this instance for the 6x platinum record "Speak Now" by Taylor Swift... http://m.bgamplifier.com/music/taylor-swift-album-features-local-talent-chris-carmichael/article_1efadb28-505f-50c9-b3ec-a627aa4c3a28.html?mode=jqm "the track Enchanted, originally slated as the title cut, features Carmichael's arrangment as well as his performance on violins, violas and cellos. In fact, twenty individual instrument tracks he created are featured in the song. Each track was recorded in his Bowling Green studio."

An internet search produced this picture of his instruments in the studio where he is referred to as a "One Man Orchestra". http://twitpic.com/1xwdca Magoobin (talk) 12:50, 24 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin

• I'm not sure if English is not your first language or if you simply have comprehension problems. I don't care one bit about whether he uses real instruments or sound libraries. The issue is that http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-119739915.html, without signing up for a full account, you don't get sufficient context to know anything. Try signing out or using a private/in cognito browsing mode to view the link. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Mr. Görlitz, that is why I went to the effort of providing more links to help you gain a wider perspective. My comprehension is fine. I find it interesting that you accuse me of "personal attacks" when I clearly did not - yet you find it acceptable to insult me pointedly.Magoobin (talk) 13:35, 24 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs) 13:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Thanks for your help but you've missed the point. I don't care about the subject but about that one reference. As for personal attacks, read :WP:NPA for full details on what it means in Wikipedia's context. You have implied (or simply stated) at least twice (it depends on how you count the material that you first posted to my talk page and then to several other locations on Wikipedia) that I have some sort of vendetta toward or inordinate concern to the subject, which is unfounded. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• I believe the Genesis of all of this was when I added Chris Carmichael (musician) 's credits to a page that you very closely monitor, namely, the Thousand Foot Krutch page (which you undid) with the comment, "String arrangers aren't usually listed like this, but thanks." Perhaps you did not realize that he performed the arrangements in addition to arranging and recording them - or perhaps that does not matter to you - but it may matter to someone else. Here is what Trevor McNevan of Thousand Foot Krutch said about working with the subject of this page... http://www.crosswalk.com/11608129/ "We worked with Chris Carmichael on the strings for the first time; he was phenomenal." -T.M. Perhaps you now understand that he is not merely an arranger but the performer and engineer of his arrangements appearing on many of music's finer recordings.
• I actually saw your edit on :The Midsummer Station first, but a string arranger, even if they perform all of the strings, are not session members. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:42, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, I believe that you do an excellent job on Wikipedia and have learned a good deal on proper protocol from you. I would like to thank you for imparting your knowledge. Sincerely, 21:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)Magoobin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magoobin (talk • contribs)

: Glad to help. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:42, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

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• Keep - while the sources could be improved, due to touring and soundtracks, this musician makes the cut. Bearian (talk) 17:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep – Subject meets notability. EBY (talk) 16:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.