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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cindi Love

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Skomorokh  14:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

=[[Cindi Love]]=

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:{{la|Cindi Love}} ([{{fullurl:Cindi Love|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cindi Love}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

:({{findsources|Cindi Love}})

This person does not meet Wikipedia's noteworthy guidelines. Serpentduv (talk) 08:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Disagree: For the past four years, this woman has been the chief operating officer of a global Christian denomination, and she helped create a national anti-discrimination campaign that is still in operation. Moreover, she has had a successful career both as an entrepreneur and as an educational advocate for the state of Texas. I admit that it is difficult to find news items about her apart from the church's official announcements, but I would say that she is presently a significant figure within LGBT Christianity; whether she will stay this way, I cannot tell, but at present she is an internationally known leader. Aristophanes68 (talk) 10:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Your argument seems to appeal to moralizing rather than locating sources to verify notability. The encyclopedia is supposed to document the verifiable state of a topic others have noted. You can appreciate the problems in trying to rely on sources that tend to be more promotional than scholarly. If you are concerned with lack of coverage by mainstream media, you may be able to make a case for independent coverage by unrelated but edited special interest publications- educational journals, unrelated churches, etc. The wiki criteria want something more than "local" interest but if you can find sources that could be presumed to be reliable and independent at least you could argue about this subjective area. Arguments about "worthy cause" and "I would say" from an anon source may not make her life encyclopedic as this could cover just about everyone. The social networking sites may be more receptive however. Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete Aristophanes said "I admit that it is difficult to find news items about her apart from the church's official announcements" I was about to remark on that fact, together with the observation than most of those references were 'trivial'. We have no other way of judging if someone is notable, so I would say she fails WP:N Ohconfucius (talk) 14:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - I didn't have too much trouble finding news items about her, and the article already had a couple of worthwhile references. While it is true that some of the references only have trivial mentions, a few are definitely non-trivial and meet the notability requirements. She's actually an interesting figure, it seems, and has been noted for a number of very different roles in her life. - Bilby (talk) 15:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

:*Comment - Just to comment about the sources, in case it helps: I think it depends a bit on how you see the Abilene Reporter-News, as they've given her a fair bit of coverage over the last decade. If it counts towards notability then there isn't a problem at all, but if not then we need to look at the others. Of these, PC Week, Network World and Call Centre Magazine all have non-trivial sections where they interview her, but most of the content is in relation to what she's been doing at companies, rather than on her personally. I'm inclined to count them, as they're covering decisions she's made in her roles, but others may vary on this. Less doubtful is one of the Network World articles, as it has non-trival coverage where they also refer to her background, so I'd count this towards notability. The Dallas Morning news article also seems non-trivial and general enough to count as well. Personally, I think there's enough to meet basic notability guidelines before we start including the marginal stuff, and the marginal stuff (local news, mostly) may not count towards notability, but it is enough to limit the dependency on self-published or primary sources. And the more I dig the more I've been finding, mostly because of what she was doing in the mid 90's, which was far more prominent than I expected. I'll keep looking, if only because I'm really enjoying learning about her. - Bilby (talk) 03:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: Comment I do not see that Aristophanes68 has been in any way uncivil in this discussion. His text ("For the past four years, this woman has been the chief operating officer of a global Christian denomination, and she helped create a national anti-discrimination campaign that is still in operation. Moreover, she has had a successful career both as an entrepreneur and as an educational advocate for the state of Texas. I admit that it is difficult to find news items about her apart from the church's official announcements, but I would say that she is presently a significant figure within LGBT Christianity; whether she will stay this way, I cannot tell, but at present she is an internationally known leader") does not appear to be anything other than an argument in favor of keeping the article. Could you please tell us which part of this seems to violate WP:CIVIL? Mandsford (talk) 18:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Serpentduv typed on User_talk:Aristophanes68 that "I advise you to learn the meaning of the word propaganda." I interpret this (although I certainly may be wrong) as an attack on Aristophanes68's editing that is unhelpful to the discussion. The Squicks (talk) 20:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Then I would observe that Serpentduv has not said anything at all uncivil in this discussion either. As a nominator, he or she has expressed an opinion pertaining to Cindi Love, saying that "This person does not meet Wikipedia's noteworthy guidelines". Whatever comments may been made by one person on another person's talk page are irrelevant unless they are repeated here. I would caution all editors to not raise WP:CIVIL within an AfD discussion unless they are responding to comments made during that discussion. Mandsford (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I was going to type something, but then I realized that I could not put it any better than Bilby just did. The Squicks (talk) 16:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Wait: Looking at the article, it is possible notability could be established but if you take out the self-cites, you have a few isolated local stories: I didn't check which ones were non-trivial but all the sites looked like small town news or stations. Personally I'm big on obscure-but-notable but there needs to be something that has already been noticed by wiki criteria. Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 17:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 23:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 23:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep - of course she's notable. Tris2000 (talk) 11:49, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per Bilby. The article seems to have plenty of sources. --Alynna (talk) 12:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep She is clearly notable, plenty of mention of her, and an important figure in this movement. Dream Focus 14:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I conclude that she is marginally notable, thus keep. There is enough non-local coverage by independent sources to get over that bar. However, being the executive director of the MCC is not a primary leadership role for the denomination, the denomination being led by a moderator and board of elders that appoints the board of administration, which would then hire administrative staff. Indeed, it appears she was not even on the board of administration, as she held her position with them until May 2009, yet in a document updated April 2009 listing the members of all the church's leadership boards her name does not appear.[http://www.mccchurch.org/Content/NavigationMenu/AboutUs/BoardandTeamListings/MCC_Boards_and_Teams.htm] I conclude that as regards the denomination, she was an employee rather than a leader. GRBerry 21:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.