Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death of Cristina and Violetta Djeordsevic

:{{la|Death of Cristina and Violetta Djeordsevic}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Death of Cristina and Violetta Djeordsevic}})

Not a very highlighted incident. The Wang Yue incident was notable due to the international outcry. This hasn`t received the same treatment. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 23:01 19 November 2011 (UTC)

• Retain - On the contrary, issue widely reported internationally in print-of-record newspapers as significant and controversial. [http://www.google.ie/#pq=gypsy+children+drowned+naples&hl=en&ds=n&cp=19&gs_id=7t&xhr=t&q=roma+gypsy+children+bodies+naples&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=roma+gypsy+children+bodies+naples&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=7439cb6c23daeeba&biw=1366&bih=555&bs=1 crude news search]. RashersTierney (talk) 23:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

::Only two of those reference this. A majority of those are from 1992 or other years in time. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 23:27 19 November 2011 (UTC)

:::Not true. Care to clarify? RashersTierney (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. This article says as much about the lack of empathy in Italy as the Death of Wang Yue article says about China. WWGB (talk) 10:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
• Delete in my opinion it is not notable because it did not received enough international outcry. Searching on Google "Wang Yue" reports +200k pages, "Violetta Djeordsevic" less than 100 pages. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 19:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::The children may not be named, but the incident has been referred to in these scholarly articles [http://books.google.ie/books?id=mjWpTd-TSpIC&pg=PA112&dq=gypsy+children+drowned+naples&hl=en&ei=0_DIToOcHorPhAe6sdDaDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gypsy%20children%20drowned%20naples&f=false 1], [http://digitalcommons.providence.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=glbstudy_students&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dgypsy%2Bracism%2Bnaples%2Bdead%2Bchildren%2Bvioletta%26btnG%3DSearch%26as_sdt%3D0%252C5%26as_ylo%3D2007%26as_vis%3D0#search=%22gypsy%20racism%20naples%20dead%20children%20violetta%22 2], [http://faculty.vassar.edu/macunningham/past_theses/KathrynThomas_2009_Thesis.pdf 3], [http://www.iaie.org/insetrom/download/strand_3symeou281.pdf 4], [http://www.errc.org/cms/upload/media/03/B6/m000003B6.pdf 5], [http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=b9dPZ1RcSkAC&oi=fnd&pg=PA105&dq=2008+children+sunbathers+drowned+italy&ots=S5Nst_0XsW&sig=LwMcKj8UGisvKliIyzWFBsPzkrs#v=onepage&q=sunbathers&f=false 6], [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-5812.2010.00688.x/abstract 7], [http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=KhejoCZ7alEC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=2008+%22roma+children%22+OR+%22romani+children%22+OR+%22gypsy+children%22+drowned++italy&ots=lzXYpGUjAz&sig=JmURiDf6SJrjaJqgItTygQzI8iU#v=snippet&q=drowned&f=false 8]. There are certainly more if the search terms were refined. RashersTierney (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::Also, reporting on the incident used a variety of spellings for the names of the victims. Early reporting was particularly inconsistent with their surnames and ages. It will require some effort to find all the articles using diverse spellings. Badon (talk) 03:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

::::199900 misspellings? -- Basilicofresco (msg) 20:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::That is a non-sequitur. There is no 200,000 Google search results threshold of notability. Badon (talk) 04:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. In addition, international media coverage of the deaths coincided with other Roma-related international controversy that occurred earlier the same year in Naples. Badon (talk) 02:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Delete: per WP:NOTMEMORIAL Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 02:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::The drowning of two children was not in itself notable (from a Wikipedia point of view), but the perceived indifference of beach goers as reported internationally most certainly is. This is what the article is about. RashersTierney (talk) 02:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:::The article as of now is a 5-sourced stub that wasn't a highly carried story. I never heard the story until Badon created it. And please don't use that as a reason to keep it. The Wang Yue article is well sourced and was well talked about. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 12:50 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::::Rash, you're essentially saying that people's apathy is the notable concept. So create an article on that, and delete this article Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 14:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::Not sure I understand. You mean rename the article? RashersTierney (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::No, I mean delete this article and add some of the content as an example of people's apathy to an existing or new article on people's apathy Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 14:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::The article is not about a concept. It is about a notable incident as demonstrated by its international and scholarly coverage and analysis. RashersTierney (talk) 15:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::I agree, there's nothing about this article that is "memorial" in nature. It is about one aspect of an anti-ziganism atmosphere in Naples that drew international attention for several months of 2008. Other related articles suggest the larger over-arching gypsy controversy is still ongoing within Italy, of which this article documents one of the small but most significant parts of interest to the world as a whole, outside Italy and Naples. Badon (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Delete and add the contents (just one paragraph) into Bystander effect. Ella Plantagenet (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:Do you have any reliable sources that characterise this event in such terms? RashersTierney (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::I'm not 100% sure what you're asking here. Do you think the article currently being discussed for deletion isn't an example of the bystander effect? It seemed so to me. Since the article of this Italian incident is comprised of precisely one paragraph, it seems to me it could easily be incorporated into the bystander effect article. I don't see why I would need sources for that. Ella Plantagenet (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

:::The sources presented in the article have rationalised the reaction of the beach-goers in terms of racism. I haven't seen it presented in terms of a social phenomenon that didn't have this as the central plank. The racism rationale may be mistaken, or at least may not be the sole cause. I just wondered if you had seen it explained somewhere (other than blogs, of which there are a number) as an example of 'bystander effect'. RashersTierney (talk) 23:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

::::No, this AfD listing was the first I heard of this tragedy. It did instantly remind me of Kitty Genovese though, and that's a classic bystander effect scenario, so I thought perhaps this article could be incorporated into that article under the "Notable examples" subheading. It could be I'm underestimating the prejudice against the Roma in Italy, being an American I have little grasp on the subtleties of European ethnic relations, much to my chagrin. Ella Plantagenet (talk) 01:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::This article is NOT an example of the bystander effect. The bystander effect is just marginally related enough to be in the see also section, and even that could easily be argued against. There's nothing to suggest that there was any possibility of rescuing the girls before they died, so it can't be used as an example of the bystander effect. The girls were killed by being dashed against the rocks, and subsequently drowning, presumably after losing consciousness. They were swimming with other friends/family who would surely have rescued them if they could have. If I remember correctly, they both died very quickly in an unusual event in an area that is not normally considered dangerous, so I assume they were not discovered to be in jeopardy until they were either already dead, or death was imminent.

:::::For those reasons, I am skeptical of the accusations that racism was a factor in their deaths. Indeed, the reportage of the incident does not blame racism per se, but instead highlights the appearance of apathy amongst Italians in the aftermath of the deaths, as well as in the greater context of the aftermath of arsons of Romani camps just a few months earlier in the same city of Naples. Badon (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::It is complicated, and agree that there was no malice involved in the deaths per se. It was the apparent indifference post mortem that caused a furore. If it is to be merged it should be in a racism context as that is how it has been reported, rightly or wrongly. RashersTierney (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::A racism context is definitively NOT The bystander effect, so consequently, I can't think of a reason to merge the article into an unrelated article. Correct me if I wrong about that. Badon (talk) 07:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep a notable incident that was widely reported. Add some of the many Italian-language sources / content (needs to be done by someone who is bilingual). Stuartyeates (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.