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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deborah Haswell

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. If people could quote rather than misquote policy, AfD would be a lot smoother (although I thank users for at least providing full rationales, which seems to be a change). Ironholds (talk) 02:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

=[[Deborah Haswell]]=

:{{la|Deborah Haswell}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Deborah Haswell}})

Mayor of a small community (population <22,000). No significant coverage in google. Fails WP:POLITICIAN. noq (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

:::RE: "WP:POLITICIAN clearly states that mayors of major regional centres are notable": Actually, it doesn't. See below. --MelanieN (talk) 01:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Significant coverage in Google is lacking because, like all newly elected mayors in the province, she was only just sworn in a few weeks ago and hasn't had a chance to garner that much coverage yet. That said, although I'm no fan of unsourced articles on small-town mayors in principle, the key is verifiable references in reliable sources — I've initiated articles on mayors of places the size of Owen Sound or even smaller, where good media references were available. As well, the inclusion criterion for mayors is not a raw city population cutoff, but the more subjective determination of "regional prominence" — which I would argue that Owen Sound does meet, as it's the primary population and retail and administrative centre for a rather sizeable chunk of the entire Southwestern Ontario region, and we already have articles about nine other past mayors of the city. And if the person meets our inclusion criteria, then we only require one legitimate reference to support a basic stub — while more sources would certainly be welcome, one source to demonstrate basic WP:GNG notability is already present. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 19:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • The current source only basically says she is the mayor. One source doesn't meet the significant coverage requirement of GNG. If in the future she garners more coverage, the article can be recreated. You are just assuming she will gain more coverage in the future. CTJF83 chat 19:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • How on earth could a person who meets our basic criterion — mayor of a city of at least regional prominence — possibly not garner additional coverage in the future? Is her hometown newspaper going to somehow fail to even report on basic city council business for the next four years? Is nobody ever going to quote her on anything? Even if she somehow ceases to be mayor tomorrow, there will still have to be at least one article somewhere about how and why that happened. In order to never garner another whit of media coverage, she would have to spend the next four years literally doing nothing at all — so you're making a far more extraordinary "prediction" than I am on this one. Bearcat (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Now, now, AGF...when/if in the future she has more coverage, an article can then be created CTJF83 chat 19:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • The rule is and has always been that a politician who holds an "inherently notable" role is entitled to a basic stub on the basis of one source which confirms that the person has held the role, because some (not all) political roles are notable enough that anybody who held them is automatically notable just by virtue of having held that role. We do not, for instance, distinguish between "notable" and "non-notable" members of a national legislature; if they held that office at all, then they're entitled to a basic stub even if the only reference we can ever actually find is that legislature's own web listing of its past members. You can certainly question whether "Mayor of Owen Sound" is one of those roles or not: if it is, then she's allowed to have a basic stub on the basis of one reference which confirms that she held the role, and if it isn't, then she isn't. But the notability of the role is the primary question when it comes to a politician, because we do not distinguish between "notable" and "non-notable" occupants of an "inherently notable" office. If the office is inherently notable, then everybody who ever held it gets to have an article no matter how weak you think the references may be; if the office isn't inherently notable, then you can start distinguishing the notability or non-notability of individual holders of that office. Bearcat (talk) 20:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • (ec) Personally I don't think mayor of that city is an inherent role. Any national, state/province role I would agree is inherently notable, as are top regional centers, which I don't see this city being. CTJF83 chat 20:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Just so that we can be sure that we're all speaking the same language here, what's your definition of a "top regional center"? If the two people in this discussion who actually live in the country (and province) this city is in — and who can thus be expected to have a pretty reliable sense of which cities are or aren't considered important regional centres in that province — have both said that it is one, based on the fact that it's the largest city and the primary retail, educational and administrative centre for a four-county region that's larger than several entire US states, then what's your criterion for suggesting a different definition? I'm not asking this to be tendentious or anything, but we're very unlikely to achieve any sort of consensus if we're not even defining "prominent regional centre" in the same way. Bearcat (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
  • You make a point...but your point may also be skewed to locals who may have a slanted opinion on what is a top regional center. Since there is no definition, it is hard to say. I understand what regional means, but if people outside the region haven't heard of the city, is it really important enough? CTJF83 chat 22:05, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Personally, I do not see the inherent notability. The Southhwestern Ontario region primary administrative capital seems to be London. Other larger cities also exist in the region - so what makes a city that seems to be no bigger than the village I live in notable enough that its local representatives meet WP:POLITICIAN? If this is notable, then most English Parish councillors would qualify - they get the election results to appear in local papers as well - which seems to me to be absurd.noq (talk) 01:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::::There is no "administrative capital" of Southwestern Ontario; London's only status is that of "largest city". Owen Sound is the primary hub of the region defined by Grey, Huron, Bruce and Dufferin Counties (as well as parts of Simcoe and Perth). Bearcat (talk) 04:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::Is the mayor of Owen Sound responsible for the administration or governance of that larger area? If not, I don't see why that area would have any relevance. noq (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Weak Keep - Per Bearcats reasonings. But work needed to expand the article. etc etc etc..--BabbaQ (talk) 12:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete The language in WP:POLITICIAN refers to "mayors of cities of at least regional importance", a statement that is vague enough that it's open to interpretation, with people arguing that the surrounding area is a region. However, I can't see interpreting the policy to give a free pass to everyone who has ever been the mayor of a county seat. It doesn't matter that Noq mistakenly referred to an administrative capital. What he or she argues about London being the city of regional importance in that region holds true. London, population 350,000. Owen Sound, population 23,000. No comparison. Nothing against Ms. Haswell or against Owen Sound, ON, but if she wouldn't make it in without an elaborate argument about qualifying for automatic inclusion, that's a clue to the non-notability of being the town's mayor. Mandsford 16:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Logan Talk Contributions 21:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Move The article is too skimpy for an article. When there's more coverage, it can be expanded. Now, it's just a telephone directory entry. Ryan White Jr. (talk) 04:56, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree that it's appropriate to mention her in the article about the town. I've added the text and the cite to a new section (Owen Sound#Municipal government), i.e. "Deborah Haswell (born 1960) is mayor of the city. A 13-year council veteran, she unseated popular incumbent Ruth Lovell Stanners by a mere 41 votes in the October, 2010, municipal election." It's unlikely that she'll attain notability as it's defined under WP:PEOPLE. Small towns are notable, but their politicians aren't. Mandsford 14:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete: Sorry, but claiming that a town of 23,000 is a "major regional center" of an area as thickly settled as Southern Ontario is not remotely persuasive. Claiming that a county seat automatically qualifies is likewise absurd; the state of Texas alone has nearly a hundred counties with entire populations less than 10,000.  Ravenswing  20:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep. I agree with Bearcat's arguments to the effect that Owen Sound is a substantial enough city for its mayor to be notable. Although they may not help establish notability, which seems to me to depend on whether one considers her city a regional center, [http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/Search.aspx?search=haswell this search of the Owen Sound Sun Times archive for "haswell"] and [http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=2811843 this feature about her in that newspaper] may be useful in expanding the article beyond what would be included in a page on the city.--Opus 113 (talk) 22:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

:: It's not a question of whether every town in the world of at least 20,000 inhabitants is "substantial enough" for a free article without regard to WP:PEOPLE. If WP:POLITICIAN had been intended to cast a wide net based on civic population, it would have been written in terms of cities of at least X inhabitants. There are, of course, thousands of towns on Earth that have 20,000 or more folks, and each of those towns has had many mayors throughout history. If it had been intended to confer a page upon mayors of all county seats, it could have been so written. Although the phrase "regional importance" is vague, it does turn upon the definition of a "region". In our imperfect encyclopedia, some areas are defined as regions, and little Owen Sound would be part of the region of Southern Ontario, which has 12,000,000 people and fronts Lakes Huron, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. While some might argue that Southwestern Ontario is also a region, Wikipedia defines it as a subregion, one of four in Southern Ontario. By that measure, Owen Sound has very little regional or even subregional importance. WP:POLITICIAN doesn't refer, of course, to "subregional importance".

::Bearcat argues the town's importance as the hub of "a region defined by Grey, Huron, Bruce and Dufferin Counties (as well as parts of Simcoe and Perth)". The question then becomes, is that something that is a region defined by Wikipedia? The answer to that is no. We don't have recognition on Wikipedia of even a sub-subregion defined as "Grey-Huron-Bruce-Dufferin" (I'd refer to it as Northeast Southwestern Ontario). Recognition of being the mayor of a city of "regional importance" requires recognition of its importance within something that Wikipedia has actually defined as a region. Mandsford 16:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure, but I think the sources I linked to above may show enough coverage to satisfy WP:GNG. I realize it is possible that articles in local newspapers are not considered sources capable of establishing notability, but they are reliable sources as far as I can tell, and the article I linked to is a somewhat in-depth profile of the subject. I already understood that the size of the city did not inherently establish notability; I was arguing that the city might indeed be reasonably considered a regional center, however, this argument seems moot given what people have said about WP:POLITICIAN not conferring inherent notability on such mayors. If it is concluded that the sources in the Owen Sound Sun Times do not establish notability, I might switch to supporting merging and redirecting the article; for now, I'm not sure.--Opus 113 (talk) 01:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Delete Sorry, not notable. The required press coverage just isn't there. [http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22deborah+haswell%22&btnG=Search+Archives&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=a Google News] finds a dead-link story in the Winnipeg Free Press about her being elected; there are also a couple of quotes from her as a councillor in Reliable Sources; but I contend those do not amount to significant coverage. Please read the actual wording of WP:POLITICIAN: It grants notability to "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage.[7] Generally speaking, mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city." There is no automatic-notability clause there, it just says that such mayors "are likely to" meet the actual test, which is WP:GNG. And she doesn't meet it, at least not yet. --MelanieN (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

:: Thanks, I'm glad you pointed that out with a quote from the larger context. Looks like all the rest of us, myself included, weren't reading what it actually says. Mandsford 16:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.