Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Der Hexenkreis

:{{la|Der Hexenkreis}} ([{{fullurl:Der Hexenkreis|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Der Hexenkreis}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

This is a local chapter of the national Mortar Board honorary. There is no separate notability for this chapter. In addition, the editor who has been creating the article appears to have a direct relationship to it raising WP:COI concerns. The facts presented are undocumented and perhaps inaccurate. The article covering the national states that men were first allowed as members in 1975, but this article says men were allowed into the Cornell chapter in 1973. The article fails to explain the nature, function and purpose of the organization. Most of the article is biographies of alumni better covered by preexisting individual Wikipedia articles. The discussion page for the article indicates a probable plagarism concern. Racepacket (talk) 22:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. Well established, and the second oldest honor society at Cornell are more than enough to satisfy notability. Proxy User (talk) 23:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

:Note That (2nd oldest at Cornell) has been disputed and no references have been cited to support it. Ndenison ^talk 00:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::Comment: From the Cornel Web site: "Established 1892, Der Hexenkreis is the oldest chapter of Mortar Board, predating the national society, founded in 1918, by more than a quarter century. It was one of the four founding chapters along with Swarthmore, the University of Michigan, and Ohio State, and continues to actively serve the campus and community." http://www.rso.cornell.edu/mortarboard/about.html Proxy User (talk) 01:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Well there's a supporting reference for it. Ndenison ^talk 01:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::::That is not the Cornell website, that is the website of the local Mortar Board chapter. Cornell gives free webspace to each registered student organization (rso). You can't use a student organization's website to establish notability or to resolve disputed facts (unless it is somehow an admission against its own interest.) Otherwise, I could register a student organization (say, the Campus Tirade for the Holy Rutabaga (actually registered in 1970)), get rso webspace on the Cornell website and then claim that my organization has been a secret society since 1892.[http://rutablogger.blogspot.com/2008/12/annual-rutabaga-curl-ithaca-ny.html] Of course, nobody would believe me until I cut and paste my website content onto Wikipedia. (See International Rutabaga Curling Championship#History) I think that half the problem is the inherent non-notability of a "secret society." If Der Hexenkreis wants to be like Skull&Bones, Quill&Dagger or Sphinx Head, it should spend a few million dollars for a stone building on campus with stained glass windows, or no windows, and let people speculate about it. Replicating the organization's website on Wikipedia is self-defeating and a violation of WP:COI.Racepacket (talk) 02:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::Regarding the "second oldest honor society" comment, it isn't really. No one would argue that both Sphinx Head and Phi Beta Kappa can also be described as honor societies, and both were at Cornell before Der Hexenkreis. Also, the organization is never called "Der Hexenkreis" (at least, not since 1918). It's merely the Der Hexenkreis chapter of Mortar Board.

:::::Other issues:

:::::* It cites an ad for its own membership application for the quote "one of the highest honors bestowed on Cornell undergraduates."

:::::* Membership was secret only for its first couple years, but public long before 1918. Here's its class of 1905 [http://cdsun-test.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/newscornell?a=d&srpos=4&cl=search&d=CDS19050524.2.6.1.8].

:::::* Keith Olbermann does not appear on the full list of members that I have seen. Mary Donlon was a member though.

:::::* It began tapping men in 1975 with the national organization, not 1973.

:::::* Although Mortar Board is a fine organization at Cornell with a rich history and excellent members, this article misrepresents it. It is not perceived in the way that this article presents it by anyone outside of its own membership. The organization has been undergoing an identity crisis for the last five years in an attempt to be perceived in the same way as Sphinx Head and Quill and Dagger. Mortar Board is a great organization, but it is a different kind of organization.

:::::Cornell2010 (talk) 04:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• Delete Neutral (I don't really know anything about it, and don't feel I can make an informed !vote) per previous discussion. Ndenison ^talk 05:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I began this article, here are some comments. I hope this works, I'm new to wikipedia, I'll try to get to all the points. Most of the history of the organization and much of its alumni listings are very well documented in the Kroch Library at Cornell University (particularly the most recent packet compilation of our history printed in 1996), however, those documents are not online. I have listed the kroch library listing on the page, however (http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/ead/htmldocs/RMA02199.html)

1. Der Hexenkreis is not just a local chapter of Mortar Board-- it is a hybrid organization. Our traditions and rituals, including our initiation spot on campus and other rituals have been around since our founding in 1892. We are also associated with Mortar Board but this is not the only aspect of the society. It is one aspect.

2. It is the second oldest non academic honor society at Cornell University. Look at the new links on wikipedia that lists all of Cornells organizations-- not only is it listed as "Der Hexenkries" not the Der Hexenkresi "chapter," but it lists the founding as 1892. Sphinx predated DerH, but Quill and Dagger did not (founded in 1893). Phi Beta Kappa is an academic society. Membership in Der Hexenkreis is not based solely on grade point average.

3. The references, esp. in the Sun, are more extensive and not sponsored by the organization, and are not a part of the free website made by the organization. The sources ARE notable-- esp. the news articles. Our events, involving Pres. David Skorton and former Pres. Hunter Rawlings show this, as they would obviously not speak for an organization that was not legitimate or prestigious.

4. In response to "donating buildings"-- Though Quill and Dagger and Sphinx Head have been able to donate a lot of money-- particular in the early 20th century, because Der Hexenkreis was a WOMENS society until the 1970s, that money was obviously not as readily available. So, for obvious reasons, we do not have a tower to call our own, though we do have an initiation site that has existed for over 100 years.

5. Membership for QD and SH are also no longer secret, though they claim still to be "secret societies." DerH was once a secret society (its membership was secret), it is now an Honor society without secret membership-- we no longer call ourselves a secret society.

6. Keith Olbermann is an alumni member and each spring announces DH tapping season on his show. Obviously, this is hard to cite.

7. 1973 was a typo, just changed it.

7. Der Hexenkreis is not trying to imitate any organization, it has a rich enough history of its own for the past 117 years-- it has no need. It is different from SH and QD because it engages in public activities on campus, neither of the other organizations do because they remain "secret" and "honorary." DerH distinguishes itself because part of accepting membership is a commitment to engage in public activities that serve the Cornell community rather than simply seeing membership as an honor. There has been no "identity crisis," this has always been the mission and will always be the mission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mortarboardcornell (talk • contribs) 06:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::QD at least engages in public activities, the membership of both SH and QD are not secret. I am puzzled by Mortarboardcornell's edit here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cornell_University&oldid=263120652] which draws a comparison between SH, QD and DH. Is the argument that there has been really three of these societies around for the last 115 years, or that DH and Mortar Board is really unlike SH and QD and is more like Phi Beta Kappa? Racepacket (talk) 18:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure it was clear, but in case not, I DEFINITELY do not think this should be deleted. It is an important part of Cornell's history as a university and community. I will be adding more information soon to the page, but do not have the time right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.209.165 (talk) 10:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::I appreciate Mortarboardcornell's enthusiaism for his/her organization and I hope that he/she becomes an active Wikipedia contributor. However, I have three fundamental concerns: 1) The Wikipedia model is that we create articles and write about things that we feel are notable as uninvolved 3rd parties. People don't write about themselves, their family or their favorite organization. Wikipedia requires an outsider to say "Wikipedia needs an article about Der Hexenkreis" and start it, current members of DH are not allowed to do that. Secret societies pose special problems for this policy. I know about Skull&Bones from walking past its building on the Yale Campus, and it is notable and covered by the media, so I could see a non-member starting that article. 2) There are over 50 national collegiate honor societies, most of which have over 200 chapters. As a matter of policy, does Wikipedia want to maintain over 10,000 articles covering these honoraries at the chapter level or is our national coverage sufficient? I know that there are also campus-specific honoraries, and I support covering them. (For example, I remember that Ag students had an honorary called Ho-Nun-De-Kah, but it could be covered in a couple of sentences in the College of Agriculture article). So far, I have not read anything in the DH article that could not be covered in a few extra sentences in the national Mortar Board article. 3) Even if Mortarboardcornell is an excellent researcher and does a proficient job in creating the article, wikis need a stream of readers and editors to keep articles honest and current. If he quits editing or graduates from Cornell, who will check this article over time?

::Perhaps as a first project, Mortarboardcornell should start an article about something outside of Cornell and get experience abouth the process before undertaking the DH article. Racepacket (talk) 15:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::To quote WP:COMPANY, "Individual chapters of national and international organizations are usually not notable enough to warrant a separate article unless sufficient notability is established through reliable sources that extend beyond the organization's local area. However, chapter information may be included in list articles as long as only verifiable information is included." Racepacket (talk) 15:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• Delete - Fails notability - article appears self promotional and self-serving. --HighKing (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 07:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Summary: a new user Mortarboardcornell creates this as his/her only article, and obviously has a connection to the organization, raising WP:COI concerns. WP:COMPANY says we cover the national Mortar Board, but not the individual chapters unless notability can be established. Although Mortarboardcornell has made a few corrections and improvements in the article, notability beyond the national has not been established (as of 2009-01-17) for this chapter. Racepacket (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 03:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

• Weak Delete - per everything Racepacket says, and, well, despite all the verbiage above, I don't really see, in the article, any evidence of notability. Quill and Dagger, if that comparison is permitted, has mention in the New York Times going back decades. Nothing against this organization-- they sound like one among many fine honors societies. But per WP guidelines, and per my own research to determine any kind of notability, I can't see a reason to keep the piece.  J L G 4 1 0 4  03:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
• Delete While I can see both sides of the issue, at a glance, the article seems to be deeply POV, not really notable and there are issues with sourcing --Pstanton 07:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pstanton (talk • contribs)
• Keep - and that ref provided is fine. Hooper (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

:Comment - WP:COMPANY requires "reliable sources that extend beyond the organization's local area." Only sources offered are the local organization's website and the campus student newspaper. Materials which the local chapter deposited with the Cornell Archives are not suitable secondary sources to establish notability. Racepacket (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.