Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ethical Culture

:{{la|Ethical Culture}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Ethical Culture}})

This article looks as if it's referenced, but when you get into the sources they are either unreliable (e.g. blogs) or originate with the organisation itself. The original author is a member of the association. Guy (Help!) 11:54, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

:Possibly the article should be marked "Improve references" then, but not delete. Here are a few :

• [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,835602,00.html Time]
• [http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_06112.html Jewish Virtual Library]
• [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/194011/Ethical-Culture Britannica]

:Editor2020 (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep A simple search for sources as called for in WP:BEFORE Item #4 would have shown that this organization (or religion by some accounts), which has been around for over 135 years, is notable and has been covered in depth in many books independent of the group. Here's just one example: [http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWcbAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=%22Ethical+Culture%22+Felix+Adler&hl=en&ei=t7tqTZ7aK4LmsQOVlOSmBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Ethical%20Culture%22%20Felix%20Adler&f=false Saga of American Jewry, 1865-1914: links of an endless chain] Any shortcomings in the current version of the article should be corrected through the normal editing process rather than deletion.Cullen328 (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Needs Cleanup, not deletion. Added Primary Sources cleanup Template. VikÞor | Talk 23:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:45, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:45, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. This very clearly meets WP:GNG. I am going to move the page to "Ethical Culture movement" as that is more precise. Search that exact term in google scholar and books and you'll see how easily this passes notability. I also have to admit that I'm not sure on what grounds the article was nominated in the first place. Yes it needs attention but the nominator may wish to review WP:BEFORE prior to future nominations. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
• Strong keep - this notable topic needs cleanup and better referencing - which is available - not deletion. LadyofShalott 04:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Topic is notable in the history of atheism and religious thought. In fact, more notable than the page makes out as there are Ethical Society chapters outside the U.S. Many of what are now atheist or freethought organisations originated as ethical culture groups, and those often originated out of religious humanism, unitarianism etc. To understand the development of atheism, you need to understand the ethical culture movement. Improving the references shouldn't be too difficult. And COI shouldn't be too big of an issue here either: plenty of religious adherents edit or originate articles on religious topics. Answer is to get more eyes on the topic to make sure it adheres to WP:NPOV. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

::I'm trying to rewrite the entry. Some sources are on their way but I'm just now getting to additions about the English Ethical movement ifrom the Campbell book I've been using.Griswaldo (talk) 12:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

:::I know someone who does research on the history of humanism and frequently goes to the library at Conway Hall, home of the South Place Ethical Society. I may ask her to give some suggestions on books on the history of ethical culture movements. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

::::Great. I have found quite a few sources at my academic library actually ... just haven't picked them up yet :). I'll continue to use Colin Campbell's book section on ethical societies (from Toward a Sociology of Irreligion) to create as much of a backbone as possible in the meantime. If your friend is interested in helping us edit the entry that would, of course, also be fantastic. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:48, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

::I've posted a list of potential sources I found from JSTOR and the British Library catalogue over on Talk:Ethical Culture movement. Given that I didn't try very hard to produce this list, I'd say there's enough sources there to establish both notability and the possibility of producing a historically-informed verifiable article. —Tom Morris (talk) 00:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Atheism-related deletion discussions. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:30, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• Delete - It is mentioned is other articles and does not need its own article. Also, it reads like a brochure.--Antwerpen Synagoge (talk) 00:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

:*I don't understand what you mean by "It is mentioned is other articles and does not need its own article." Please explain. Also, "reading like a brochure" is not a reason to delete, if it could be written in a way that it no longer reads like a brochure, which is exactly what we're currently working to do on the entry. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.