Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fatal Fear

:{{la|Fatal Fear}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fatal_Fear Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Fatal Fear}})

An article about this band was previously deleted in September 2010, but this one was created in November 2011 with different content. Over four years later, this band still fails to assert notability by lacking to garner any significant coverage from reliable sources independent from the subject and still fail to meet any of the criteria of WP:BAND. They are simply not notable. — ξ^xplicit 07:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. sst✈ 08:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. sst✈ 08:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete as this still seems questionable as with the 1st AfD. Notifying the only still active AfDer {{U|Armbrust}}. SwisterTwister talk 05:14, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:NBAND and WP:SIGCOV.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:07, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Keep

  {{user|KyloWrenCubeJedi}} wrote on the article:

  {{talkquote|Article considered for deletion, however according to wiki guidelines:

  Composers and performers outside mass media traditions may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria:

  4. Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre.

  So, is metal, korean metal, melodic death metal, melodeath, melodic death core or korean death core considered a notable genre? How else is one considered noteable without being cited in journals such as Wikipedia? really. They were the only ones to get a foot into metal hammer and other publications (interviews) to get people to come have a look at others or allow others to dream of a career in music, reaching beyond the peninsula.

  |KyloWrenCubeJedi|ts=09:15, 25 January 2016‎ (UTC)|oldid=701573132}}

  Here are three sources about the subject:

  1. {{user|KyloWrenCubeJedi}} [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FatalFear,_Planet_Metal_Feature,_Metal_Hammer_issue_203_%28April_2010%29.jpg uploaded to Commons] the file :File:FatalFear, Planet Metal Feature, Metal Hammer issue 203 (April 2010).jpg. The image is currently tagged as being without permission. The image's description is "Feature of the South Korean band FatalFear" from Metal Hammer, issue 203, April 2010 and the permission section says "Permission Given in 2010 for Wiki usage by Editor James Gill".

     KyloWrenCubeJedi, would you follow the instructions at :commons:Image permission and send a copy of the written permission to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org?

     The Metal Hammer article is titled "Fatal Fear. South Korea: Brit frontman goes Far East Beyond Driven." It notes:

     South Korean band Fatal Fear have just finished recording their second album. Hammer spoke to vocalism Ernon 'Ed' Edward Campbell: "We took a break after our show in Seoul where we supported Arch Enemy and recorded some new music," he explains. While Ed visited family in the UK (he's the only Brit in the band), the rest of the band were in the studio writing and recording. "We added the finishing touches in February after I returned to Korea."

     The new album follows their 2006 and 2008 demos and a 2009 EP, Apocalyptic Crusade, all released via their own independent imprint, Realize Records, who have signed bands from the Far East (Korea, Japan, Indonesia) and some from Europe (Sweden, Germany and France).

     The band is completed by guitarists Blind666 and PigxHead, bassist Kim Ssung and drummer Wook.

     ...

     They currently have their sights set on Europe and the UK, having had a great response to a track placed on the UK-based Microblast compilation in 2009.

     http://www.myspace.com/bandfatalfear

  2. {{cite news |last=Baker |first=Ross |date=September 2010 |title=Rising Korean Extreme Metal with a British Flavour |url=http://powerplaymagazine.co.uk/underground_fatalfear/ |newspaper=Powerplay Rock and Metal Magazine |accessdate=2016-01-31 |archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6ewOcWZ5K |archivedate=2016-01-31 }}

     The article notes:

     Hailing from Busan, South Korea and featuring a Canadian on drums and a British-born vocalist of Polish and Jamaican descent, Fatalfear’s slamming melodic death metal has a truly international flavour. It’s one thing to come up as an underground act who were fortunate enough to land that big gig supporting a metal sensation but it is quite another to have achieved such a milestone in a country where the metal scene is virtually unknown other than to the artists which operate within it.

     ...

     Active since 2004, things really came together last year when singer Ed rejoined the fold as vocalist following the departure of frontman Wan-U (who now fronts hardcore band Gwamegi). With Campbell the band recorded an E.P. “Apocalyptic Crusade” and played their biggest gig to date supporting the mighty Arch Enemy in front of one and a half screaming metal fans in the South Korean capital Seoul. Ed relates.

     ...

     2010 has seen the addition of Canadian-born drummer Kirk Martin to the fold as well as the band gaining a slot on the UK-based compilation “Microblast 2”, which was their first release on these shores.

     According to http://www.newsstand.co.uk/190-Heavy-Metal-Magazines/323-Subscribe-to-POWERPLAY-Magazine-Subscription.aspx^{[http://www.webcitation.org/6ewP6STf0 WebCite]}:

     Powerplay is a niche rock and heavy metal music magazine from the UK, which is not to be confused with the ice hockey publication of the same name. With plenty of interviews with rock legends, reviews on new releases and interesting features on new developments in the industry we think any fan of rock and heavy metal music will love Powerplay magazine. It is released every month and likes to feature the best players and singers around at the moment.

     Buy a single copy or subscription to Powerplay Magazine. Current issues sent same day up to 3pm! All magazines sent by 1st Class Mail UK & by Airmail worldwide (bar UK over 750g which may go 2nd Class).

     This establishes that Powerplay Rock and Metal Magazine is a print magazine.
  3. The band's Facebook page is https://www.facebook.com/FatalFearMetal. I reviewed [https://www.facebook.com/FatalFearMetal/posts/1296609350356636 a post on the Facebook page], which says:

     Does anyone know how to enter a wiki discussion (page for deletion)?

     The Bands page is up for deletion and, the main reason is that there arent many reliable sources (aside from the page scan from metal hammer?!?) which is a result of the scene being virtually unknown globally...due to pages like this getting deleted (see where im going here) We were the only band to be featured in the magazine EVER from Korea...that i know of, and its one of the top magazines for the genrer of metal in the world....so, its something that should remain for others to follow/be inspired by etc...also, the band never formally disbanded. just on a ong term hiatus and I no longer live in Korea (might again in the future, though no plans to at present...as my wife is Korean and I have been chatting with Guitarist Jin-Su about working on tracks over the internet while we are both involved with diofferent projects in our respective locales)

     Of particular note is the sentence "We were the only band to be featured in the magazine EVER from Korea...that i know of, and its one of the top magazines for the genrer of metal in the world".

     If citation information from the Korean magazine EVER could be provided (the date the article was published), then this would be a third source about the subject.

     KyloWrenCubeJedi, would you provide this information and any other articles from reliable sources about the band? Two sources are enough to establish notability, but additional sources will strongly establish that the band passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 06:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Keep I think the above sources meet WP:GNGAtlantic306 (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I requested reversal of the NAC because although likely unintentional, it looked like a supervote, and perhaps more importantly this discussion doesn't look to have either a clear consensus or an obvious lack thereof such that, to me, an NAC seemed inappropriate. Thanks for re-opening. I was evaluating the subject while it was being closed and formed an opinion, but I don't want it to seem like I asked for it to be re-opened just so I could get my !vote in, so I'll abstain. It was a "weak" one anyway. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:43, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. In regards to the links provided by User:Cunard above, I'll reiterate the point I brought up on User:Valoem's talk page. There are four links presented: a now-deleted images on Commons, an article by Powerplay Rock and Metal magazine of the band, a link to Newsstand that verifies that said magazine is published physically, and a link to the band's Facebook page where they make an unverified claim ("We were the only band to be featured in the magazine EVER from Korea...that i know of, and its one of the top magazines for the genrer of metal in the world"). Since one isn't about the band at all (Newsstand) and the other isn't a suitable source for a WP:BLP (Facebook), that shrinks the usable amount of sources down to two. Searching the Korean portal Naver (both 'Fatal Fear' and '페이탈 피어') doesn't bring anything up on them; the latter search term brought up articles about Fear (1996 film) instead. WP:GNG nor WP:BAND guarantee an article on the subject: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included; Musicians or ensembles may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria (boldfaced emphasis mine). Fatal Fear and FatalFear were created and largely maintained by at least one band member (User:Dreaded209 which is the name of vocalist, User:Cuwoo7 who was blocked as a sockpuppet, User:MetalModX, User:Korean metalhead, and User:KyloWrenCubeJedi, who have all been single-purpose accounts), which also points to a conflict of interest issue. This band has been active for 12 years and coverage is nearly non-existent, despite searches for sources in both English and Korean. All these factors combined suggest that this band does not meet notability requirements, not by a long shot. — ξ^xplicit 01:39, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

:*I think the articles from Metal Hammer and Powerplay Rock and Metal Magazine are by themselves enough to establish notability per Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Criteria for musicians and ensembles:

Musicians or ensembles (this category includes bands, singers, rappers, orchestras, DJs, musical theatre groups, instrumentalists, etc.) may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria:

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself

Cunard (talk) 01:47, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• Delete The supposed significant coverage in reliable independent sources is fleeting and trivial. This is just another one of uncounted tens of thousands of non-notable rock and metal bands worldwide, and trying to spin brief passing mentions into notability does not fly with me. That's my sincere evaluation. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:31, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

:*How are the Metal Hammer article and [http://powerplaymagazine.co.uk/underground_fatalfear/ this article] in Power Play Magazine "fleeting and trivial"? I think neither are fleeting or trivial. They both provide substantial coverage of the subject, enough to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Criteria for musicians and ensembles. Cunard (talk) 07:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

::*"Fleeting" in this context means the lack of ongoing coverage, {{U|Cunard}}. Truly notable bands will be covered repeatedly in reliable sources as their careers develop. Most of the content of these two articles consists of quotations by band members which is not independent coverage needed to establish notability. What remains is standard promotional fluff extracted from the band's social media or press releases. There is no evidence of original reporting or truly significant coverage. That is what I mean by "trivial". I know significant coverage when I see it, and as I evaluate the matter, I do not see it here. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:15, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

:::*I don't think it is necessary to have ongoing coverage per Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is not temporary ("Notability is not temporary; once a topic has been the subject of 'significant coverage' in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage.").

I think the sources still amount to significant coverage with the quotes removed. I disagree that "There is no evidence of original reporting or truly significant coverage." For example, in Power Play Magazine, author Ross Baker wrote:

Hailing from Busan, South Korea and featuring a Canadian on drums and a British-born vocalist of Polish and Jamaican descent, Fatalfear’s slamming melodic death metal has a truly international flavour. It’s one thing to come up as an underground act who were fortunate enough to land that big gig supporting a metal sensation but it is quite another to have achieved such a milestone in a country where the metal scene is virtually unknown other than to the artists which operate within it.

This is independent, third-party analysis of the band. The author calls its music "slamming melodic death metal" that has "a truly international flavour". Author Ross Baker marvels that the band started as an "underground act" that got lucky with a "big gig" and has achieved a "milestone" in Korea, a country where "the metal scene is virtually unknown". This is original analysis.

The article further discusses this "big gig":

Active since 2004, things really came together last year when singer Ed rejoined the fold as vocalist following the departure of frontman Wan-U (who now fronts hardcore band Gwamegi). With Campbell the band recorded an E.P. “Apocalyptic Crusade” and played their biggest gig to date supporting the mighty Arch Enemy in front of one and a half screaming metal fans in the South Korean capital Seoul.

...

2010 has seen the addition of Canadian-born drummer Kirk Martin to the fold as well as the band gaining a slot on the UK-based compilation “Microblast 2”, which was their first release on these shores.

It chronicles the band's history and comes across to me as "original reporting".

Likewise the Metal Hammer discusses the band's history.

Cunard (talk) 06:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.