Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fiona Smith (whipcracker)

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not sure if can be considered athlete as whip cracking is hardly a major sport. regardless fails fails WP:BIO. the only source appears self published. [http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=%22fiona+smith%22+whip+crack trove] doesn't reveal much. google news not much either [http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=whipcracking&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=Fiona+Smith&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=&as_user_hdate=&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring=a]. nothing that Wingham is the town she comes from. LibStar (talk) 04:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I feel that an eleven-time national champion at anything ought to be notable, regardless of whether it's seen as a major sport. The only issue is finding appropriate sources. For what it's worth, a search of the Factiva database reveals articles about her in the Hills Shire Times, 17th March 2009 (219 words, headline "Champ gets cracking - CASTLE HILL SHOW") and in the Daily News, Warwick, 9th February 2010 (364 words, headline "Competitors get cracking to win whip titles"), both verifying that she had won ten national titles at that date. And there's the [http://www.winghamchronicle.com.au/news/local/news/general/what-a-cracker-meet-seventime-national-title-holder-fiona-smith/325072.aspx Wingham Chronicle article] hinted at above. It's not much; I'll leave it for others to discuss whether this is enough. Jowa fan (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — -- Cirt (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Wikipedia indicates that whipcracking is a competitive sport in Australia. That's unsourced, but if it's in Wikipedia it must be true, per WP:MUSTBETRUE. A multiple time national champ at a competitive sport would seem to be in like flynn if the titles pass the verifiability threshold, yes? Carrite (talk) 04:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

:: And she's [http://whips.ontheinternet.com.au/ A THREE TIME WORLD CHAMP], too, or so she says herself. Carrite (talk) 04:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

::: The sponsoring organization is the [http://www.australianwhipcracking.org/ AUSTRALIAN WHIPCRACKERS AND PLAITERS ASSOCATION], which notes that whipcracking is "a great family sport." Carrite (talk) 04:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

:::: And, yep, [http://www.australianwhipcracking.org/Full_Whipcracking_Champions.htm THEY CONFIRM] that Fiona Wilks Smith is the champ of champs in Australian competitive whipcracking. Carrite (talk) 04:49, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

: none of the sources you provide are third party. We need third party coverage. Secondly I do wonder how genuine competitive this is, how many people actually compete in this very minor sport in Australia? LibStar (talk) 07:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Keep as the multiple-time national champion of a competitive sport, esoteric though it may be. Carrite (talk) 04:49, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

: national champions should get national coverage, all this person gets is primary source coverage and small regional newspapers one of which is the small town she comes from so not entirely third party. LibStar (talk) 13:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

::Can you explain further what you mean by "not entirely third party"? We're looking here for sources that are independent and reliable. Lacking evidence to the contrary, we should assume that a newspaper has editorial independence: she didn't write the article herself, right? And the definition of "significant coverage" at WP:GNG is that sources address the subject directly in detail; it's nothing to do with whether the source is published locally or nationally. Can you point to a policy or guideline that discourages the use of regional newspapers as sources? Footnote 3 of WP:BIO says What constitutes a "published work" is deliberately broad. Jowa fan (talk) 03:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

::: the wingham chronicle is hardly a major newspaper. my point is, a national champion should get national coverage, even a passing mention in a major Australian newspaper. she does not. as per WP:SOURCES. " reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. " LibStar (talk) 03:16, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:::: It might not be a metropolitan newspaper, but I don't see that it's not mainstream, which is the test Wikipedia suggests. In any case, both of the articles that link to the Wingham Chronicle website can also be found on the site for the St George and Sutherland Shire Leader, which, as noted below, 'is the most-read suburban newspaper in the Sydney Metropolitan Area'. (You can find them [http://www.theleader.com.au/state-news/nsw/news/general/what-a-cracker-meet-seventime-national-title-holder-fiona-smith/325072.aspx?storypage=0 here] and [http://www.theleader.com.au/state-news/nsw/news/general/fiona-whips-butt/1783746.aspx?storypage=0 here].) That suggests Fairfax syndicated the stories throughout NSW, and possibly the rest of the country. There's obviously no question that something syndicated in Fairfax would be considered both reliable and third party. But the same clearly applies for the Leader on its own, since it's nowhere near Wingham. BlueThird (talk) 04:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

::::I wonder if it's worth raising this at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Jowa fan (talk) 04:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. Found and added independent verification of the world titles; updated her tally of national titles – it's now 12; added various other tidbits, including the fact that her three international wins were in mixed-gender competition, and that she won all three categories in each of those years. If whipcracking deserves a page – and it has had one, unchallenged, since 2006 – then it seems blindingly obvious that FS does. Her dominance might say something about the lack of competition – or might not, I've really got no idea – but quite clearly it also says something about the woman. No one makes achievements like those, in any field, without some hefty measures of talent and dedication. She's absolutely worthy of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueThird (talk • contribs) 13:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Made further improvements to the article. Impossible to know if the last reference I added made it to the print edition or just the website, but the Leader 'is the most-read suburban newspaper in the Sydney Metropolitan Area' so she has at least some metropolitan coverage. BlueThird (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

: "the most-read suburban newspaper in the Sydney Metropolitan Area" applies to the St George Leader not Wingham chronicle. LibStar (talk) 04:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:: Which is exactly what I said. BlueThird (talk) 04:16, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

• Keep Sufficiently notable for her role in a competitive sport, with sufficient references to pass notability, obscure as the sport may be. Orderinchaos 04:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.