Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greg Baines

:{{la|Greg Baines}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Greg_Baines Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Greg Baines}})

Appears to be notable for only 1 thing--his fight with Joe Lewis (which Baines lost by knockout in the second round). He won no major karate tournaments as a black belt and the coverage is passing mentions and mainly in articles about Lewis.Mdtemp (talk) 16:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 17:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

::Keep, stated to be a heavyweight winner of multiple tournaments. https://books.google.com/books?id=RM4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=GREG+BAInES+karate&source=bl&ots=SyEZApSbOy&sig=FtxAGyRhy6jH3yOf7UfJCdPeWxQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Bf4CVdSIN9HkgwSBqYPACA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=GREG%20BAInES%20karate&f=false California State Heavyweight Champion https://books.google.com/books?id=tfhV-DlgoyQC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=greg+baines+kenpo&source=bl&ots=IZJwrXdDLQ&sig=4KAh6aKQuLn_uBsiaFddf02hq8Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BywHVZy0OJDtggTWxYCIBA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=greg%20baines%20kenpo&f=false, Northern Pacific Nationals Heavyweight Champion https://books.google.com/books?id=cM4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=greg+baines+kenpo&source=bl&ots=1cQFfzfdUH&sig=ExiwfqYbqLAO7wlC0EvKMz1QsLU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BywHVZy0OJDtggTWxYCIBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=greg%20baines%20kenpo&f=false Part of an elite team of Joe Lewis, Ron Marchini, and Chuck Norrishttps://books.google.com/books?id=39oDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=greg+baines+kenpo&source=bl&ots=7g0wN_8iYh&sig=66sIuY8ji1gJ2HwHbZMVGy3gvLM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NSwHVbXbIoH-gwSuh4TwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=greg%20baines%20kenpo&f=false, numerous articles mentions of him through many articles https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=gregory+baines+karate&source=bl&ots=CD7Ot2TTJ7&sig=1OkjE6n7jV4kmzTPalilMsjvvMQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gC4HVf7HCMi5ggTj0YGICA&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=gregory%20baines%20karate&f=false, https://books.google.com/books?id=1hAPBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT153&lpg=PT153&dq=gregory+baines+karate&source=bl&ots=wIvbIPtAbg&sig=FyI2M-DmL5pqcM6Lp3tG206024g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nS4HVdrNGsqmNpeugYgI&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=gregory%20baines%20karate&f=false , https://books.google.com/books?id=YOFuyqBrKTIC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=gregory+baines+karate&source=bl&ots=LhcfRi39wy&sig=hUHtz6vsdSk3lxzIWj4m-wXBJZ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5y4HVd37B4i9ggSL54LQBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=gregory%20baines%20karate&f=false, http://issuu.com/officialkaratemag/docs/ok.fall.2012b Baines was actually the favorite to beat Joe Lewis https://books.google.com/books?id=yE1HsGFasGYC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=gregory+baines+karate&source=bl&ots=qVjxMwftp0&sig=0BBllBZy9RQ6fcNa3AivMhZoA2A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gC4HVf7HCMi5ggTj0YGICA&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=gregory%20baines%20karate&f=false Greg was the top heavyweight fighter in the nation in 1970 https://books.google.com/books?id=ZNwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA35&dq=%22greg+baines%22+california&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9zEHVYbsKtHtgwSCh4TYBw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22greg%20baines%22%20california&f=false considered to be a household name in American karate https://books.google.com/books?id=Q84DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA38&dq=%22greg+baines%22+california&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9zEHVYbsKtHtgwSCh4TYBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=greg&f=false the fight itself is a major fight in the world of kickboxing https://books.google.com/books?id=4kXO2krxZREC&pg=PA54&dq=%22greg+baines%22+california&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9zEHVYbsKtHtgwSCh4TYBw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=greg&f=false

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::— Preceding unsigned comment added by CrazyAces489 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

::CrazyAces, why do you always relist every source from the article? You don't respond to the comments of other editors, you just try and bury them by essentially putting the article in the discussion. The championships you sourced were won as a brown belt which definitely doesn't meet WP:MANOTE. Everything else is a passing mention or related to his fight with Lewis. Biographies are not considered notable for one event, especially when it's a second round knockout loss.Mdtemp (talk) 15:27, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

:::I show them so people can easily access them. It has been stated that WP:MANOTE is a GUIDE but you use it as LAW! Since you want to use guides he passes WP:KICKGUIDE I responded to the comments and fighting for a championships shows that someone has moved up! He was also the top heavyweight in the nation at the time, so that confers notablity! CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

::::Where is the evidence that he's notable as a kickboxer? One fight doesn't show it. I use MANOTE as a second chance for those who fail GNG. This is a case where he fails both.Mdtemp (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

:That is your opinion. Let other users make their own opinions. You do not WP:OWN wikipedia martial arts. CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment What bothers me is that the references don't back up what they claim. The reference for the statement multiple tournament winner only refers to one tournament as a brown belt. A household name - the references says no such thing, again a single tournament entry. One would like to trust the references.Peter Rehse (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
• CommentI am not going to walk you through the references like I did for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Thompson (Judo). If I put it in there, it is probably there. Part of AFD is using WP:BEFORE... Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability. The 3 of you fail to do this for many of the articles that you are nominating. You can have the articles deleted if you choose. Arguing with all three of you is pointless to me. None of you are researching the articles as I clearly saw with Brewster ThompsonCrazyAces489 (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

::Going by your logic, Crispus Attucks shouldn't be on wikipedia either. He was only famous for one battle and was the first one killed. CrazyAces489 (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment then vote. The issue is the quality of references, the reliability on how they are used, and really messy articles. People are forced to look carefully at what you provide and they do look for what else is out there. In this case I haven't voted yet because I was looking but you as a primary editor are obliged not to pile work on others which you have constantly done. The issues have been pointed out to you many times by many editors and I can't help feeling that if you put even half the effort into the original articles that you do screaming about others you would not have these problems. And by the way all your accusations aside - people who have been commenting and voting on martial art AfDs for years will continue to do so. They just are less likely to do you any favors.

• Weak keep On his record alone I don't think it can pass the notability requirement for the reasons given by the nominator. However, the Baines/Lewis fight was debatably the birth of professional American kickboxing. Some say it really was four years later with the first PKA tournament but this fight clearly saw the transition from traditional point fighter (Bains) to the modern kickboxer (Lewis). The fact that the favorite Bains got so badly creamed by an alternate stylist was responsible for that birth with the PKA championship the result. If there was an article on the fight I would argue for a Redirect but lacking that one could view this as on par with contestants on the first sanctioned MMA fight. You could say it was a single event (as the original nominator points out) but that event had wider ramifications.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:06, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

::A better written article could have made the above clearer, as it stands now it remains buried in trivia. However, I called it Weak since the driving force to the change to kickboxing was the performance of Lewis rather than that of Bains and it could easily slip over the edge.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Redirect to Joe Lewis (martial artist)#Kickboxing and full-contact karate career Baines and his fight with Lewis are mentioned here. Since Baines doesn't seem to meet any notability criteria and all of the coverage on him appears to be of his fight with Lewis, a redirect seems like the best option. Papaursa (talk) 17:24, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

::A viable option.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Delete. Admittedly I didn't go through every listed source, but the ones I did check were usually mentions. The standard is significant coverage. Fails WP:MANOTE. I wouldn't oppose the redirect. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Very weak keep there's a certain level of WP:BLP1E going on here, but he seems to have been a martial artist of at least SOME note prior to that fight. Article needs definite improvement since Wikipedia is not a collection of trivia. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

::He doesn't meet WP:MANOTE or WP:ATHLETE since the his most significant achievement appears to be having been winning a state karate championship and even that doesn't say when, what organization, or at what level (since some of the other sources show victories as a brown belt which definitely doesn't show notability). I don't see any coverage that would meet WP:GNG except for what relates to his fight with Lewis, which makes this look like WP:BLP1E. Please show me any other significant coverage that you found on Baines. Papaursa (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

:::He had a name change and passed away from a car accident. http://www.scifighting.com/2014/09/21/34322/40-years-ago-week-joe-lewis-professionalized-sport-martial-arts/ Information on him is rather tough to find. CrazyAces489 (talk) 09:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

::::This source is another passing mention of being Joe Lewis's opponent. If you can't find much info on him that's a pretty good sign he's not notable and doesn't meet WP:GNG. Mdtemp (talk) 15:24, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.