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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henri Anier

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Courcelles 22:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

=[[Henri Anier]]=

:{{la|Henri Anier}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Henri Anier}})

Contested PROD. No reason given for contesting. Concern was "Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league." Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following articles for similar reasons. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:{{la|Stanislav Pedõk}}

:{{la|Nikolai Mašitšev}}

:{{la|Joonas Tamm}}

:{{la|Rait Hansen}}

:{{la|Roland Kütt}}

:Pedõk was called up to the team, but did not play which is the requirement for notability. Appearances Saaremaa, as a non-FIFA team, do not confer notability either. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:: Probably they are deleted anyway, it doesn't matter what I say. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:33, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep - Sorry, but the burden of proof is on your side and I would like to see some actual evidence that Virsliga was not a fully-pro league in 2009. BanRay 23:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

:Notability is a necessary criteria for inclusion, which means it must be established for an article to be created, or kept, not disproven to be deleted. That being said, I'm going to assume you mean the Meistriliiga, since none of these players have played in the Virsliga. Meistriliiga is clearly listed with a source as a top league that is not fully professional at WP:FPL. Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

::*No, I meant exactly what I said, so please take another look. Mind you, this is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%C3%B3lmar_%C3%96rn_R%C3%BAnarsson&diff=prev&oldid=399607013 not the first time] you are nomminating an article without making any prior research. I don't want to come across as being rude, but if someone took time to create this content, then sure we could expect you to do some research before nominating it for deletion, especially if you happen to go beyond your area of expertise, as it clearly happened in this case. BanRay 10:48, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

::::I'm confused, which of these players have played in the Virsliga? As far as I can tell, the only other league that any of these players have been part of is the A Lyga, which is also considered non-notable. From what I can see the nominator hasn't done anything wrong, but I'd be happy for you to prove otherwise. J Mo 101 (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

::::@BanRay: I fail to see how any of what you said is of any relevance to this AfD. As stated before, none of these players played in the Virsliga, making its professionality status completely irrelevant. As for the research that goes into the creation of articles, there are plenty of people who create articles in good faith, but are simply unaware of the notability criteria. I did that myself, when I first started editing. With all due respect, none of what you have said justifies a keep vote. If you can provide clear sources that indicate that any or all of these players are notable I'm more than willing to withdraw the appropriate nominations. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Sorry, my bad, I was obviously thinking about A Lyga, nonetheless, my point stands. Even more so, A Lyga was a pro league until 2008, at least, as far as I know. I'm not sure about 2009 and 2010 though. It should have never been included in WP:FPL in the first place. The current source only says that the league regulations allow registration of semi-pro footballers and says nothing about the current status of the league. But then this brings us right back to the beginning. Which criteria does the league need to fulfill, in order to be deemed fully professional? Many leagues do not allow registering semi pro players. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/d/dagenham_and_redbridge/7289621.stm The link] that currently justifies the inclusion of League 2 as a fully professional league, actually suggests that it also allows registering semi professional players, moreover, it even proves that the league had at least one semi professional player in 2008. Should this mean that League 2 and, possibly, League 1 are not fully professional (at elast according to WP:FOOTY? I'd appreciate some feedback. Thanks. BanRay 19:04, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::May I suggest you take this up at WT:FOOTY. Since most of this has little direct impact on this AfD, this isn't entirely the right forum for discussing it. As for the professionality status of A Lyga, do you have a source to support your claim? As you said it is listed on FPL, but the source for it is a dead link. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::::I you are not sure, then there should be no question. Keep the article. Pelmeen10 (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::::You seem to be missing the point that notability is necessary. Unless you, or someone else, can demonstrate using reliable sources that these players do meet WP:GNG or WP:ATHLETE, we must assume that they don't. This is called verifiability and is one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::*Sorry Sputnik, but you are the one missing the point here. WP:V says nothing about notability. The player's playing record is perfectly verifiable. The only question here is whether this record justifies player's inclusion or not. As long as there is no reliable source that would clarify the professional status of A Lyga, there is no way this article can be deleted under the rationale you provided. So far you have done very little to support your claim. BanRay 20:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

:First, let me make it explicitly clear that this entire discussion is relevant only to Nikolai Mašitšev, since he is the only one these players to have played in the A Lyga. You (BanRay) probably know that, but it didn't seem sufficiently clear to the outside reader for my liking. Second, WP:V may not say anything about notability, but WP:N does mention verifiability. It says "Notability requires verifiable evidence". I cannot verify that Nikolai Mašitšev meets WP:ATHLETE, because I cannot verify that the A Lyga is fully-pro. Since notability requires verifiable evidence and there is none, or at least none yet, he is non-notable. As for the rest of them, they have only played in Estonia. The semi-pro status of the the Meistriiliga has been verified per sources at WP:FPL, meaning they all fail WP:ATHLETE. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

:No. The qualifying rounds of the early qualifying rounds of UEFA club compettions generally don't confer notability precisely because of the presence of teams from semi-pro leagues. Besides this is a future competition and speculation is never grounds for notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Weak Delete All: Flora and Levadia are 8 and 7 time champions respectively of and 18 year old league which is the top Estonian one, and while neither have made the Group Stages of the Europa League or Champions League, both have been in qualifying multiple times. They may not meet WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTY, but if not, they're getting awfully close, I think. However, this is a can of worms to open up at WP:NFOOTY's talk page, not here. - Wmcduff (talk) 19:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete none of the articles show they meet the WP:GNG. -DJSasso (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.