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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Arthur Campbell

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Jayjg (talk) 00:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

=[[Henry Arthur Campbell]]=

:{{la|Henry Arthur Campbell}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Arthur Campbell}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{Find sources|Henry Arthur Campbell}})

Individual does not pass WP:GNG. Only reference in this BLP biography is from "Who's Who Jamaica". SnottyWong talk 22:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment This is not a BLP, SnottyWong, as this man was born in 1873 and anyone born more than 115 years ago can be assumed to have died unless listed as among world's oldest people. Cullen328 (talk) 23:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

:*Good call. Nomination modified. Thanks. SnottyWong confer 23:30, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete. Nothing to indicate how the subject meets WP:BIO, and no WP:RS (Who's Who doesn't count). Unless he's the one who actually created the system himself, the ambiguous statement "contributed to the establishment and maintenance of an electric tram system in Kingston" appears to indicate an engineer just doing his job. The other attempts at claiming notability as a result of his function with the company he worked for are similarly unimpressive. --Kinu t/c 08:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Why does "Who's Who" not count? Guettarda (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • "Who's Who" listings are usually just that: listings. They are generally short and contain only basic biographical information. Likewise, without actually seeing p. 111 of this book, which is where this entry is stated to appear, and without any actual inline citations, there is no way of knowing how much of this content can be supported by that source. --Kinu t/c 17:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Who's Who could be a valid source to substantiate a fact (i.e. that a person was a member of a particular organization). However, the Who's Who source is not a source which can be used to establish the notability of a person per WP:GNG, because it does not provide significant coverage of that person. SnottyWong spill the beans 23:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • No word in bold from me, but I would just like to point out that Campbell's position within Scottish Freemasonry does seem to be a credible claim of notability. According to [http://www3.sympatico.ca/rjwmorrell/campbell.html this page] an article about him appeared in the Daily Gleaner of Kingston, Jamaica on 18 November 1940. This doesn't appear to have been digitised so I can't check it. Nevertheless, my position is that the Daily Gleaner is a reliable source and this biography may meet inclusion criteria.—S Marshall T/C 17:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep This person shows up in numerous yearbooks and proceedings of professional societies. Notability seems reasonably established and as this is not a BLP there is no pressing reason to delete. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Please provide some sources then. Even if it's not a BLP, it still has to pass WP:V. --Kinu t/c 17:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

::* OK, I added a source and so WP:V is satisfied. Now please see our editing policy. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

:::*That source is no better than Who's Who Jamaica. It is simply a list of names. It proves that Henry Arthur Campbell exists and that he was part of an organization, but that is all it proves. Notability requires significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. My name appears in a yearbook of a professional society as well, but that doesn't make me notable. SnottyWong babble 18:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

:::*Could you please point me to a specific page? I'm having difficulty finding a listing for him in the book. I can see a listing for Henry Campbell-Bannerman, but nothing about the subject of this article, nor anything that verifies anything in it. (Also, please assume some good faith and competence on my part; there was really no need to point me to the editing policy.) --Kinu t/c 18:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

::::*[http://books.google.com/books?id=OTsLAAAAIAAJ&q=Henry+Arthur+Campbell#v=snippet&q=Henry%20Arthur%20Campbell&f=false This link] shows the only mentions of this name I could find in Colonel Warden's source. SnottyWong verbalize 18:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Ah, thank you. I searched for the subject's name in every iteration I could conceive. I suppose that this was such a trivial mention that I completely glossed over it the first eight times I looked. :) --Kinu t/c 18:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

::::::*I would ask Colonel Warden to please see our notability policy. SnottyWong gab 19:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

:::::::* Notability is not a policy and so is trumped by actual policy. In any case, Guettarda's good work below demonstrates ample notability for our purposes and so we are well-covered in all respects. There is not the slightest case for deletion. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep - serving for 24 years as the Chief Engineer of the Jamaica Public Service Company, a national-level electrical utility, should be notable. Bear in mind the problems associated with people from smaller countries with somewhat poorly documented history and with fewer sources available online and in major databases...the Gleaner, for example, might have much more coverage, but their archive is both incomplete and pay-only[http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/library/archives.html]. As for sources, we have
  • A transcription of an article from the Gleaner[http://www3.sympatico.ca/rjwmorrell/campbell.html] which mentions him being honoured by the "electrical industry" in 1940 (a source that is transcribed by a relatively random website is less than ideal, but there's also no reason to doubt it, since the content is consistent with other sources); note that this is from 1940, so presumably newsprint is at premium given wartime rationing and U-boat activity in the Caribbean)
  • A 1953 obituary from Electrical Review volume 152- I don't have access to any text, but the snippet on Google Books search page says "Mr. Henry Arthur Campbell, MI E E.. who was for twenty- four years chief electrical engineer of the Jamaica Public Service Co., Ltd., died on 6th June at Kingston, Jamaica. British West Indies". (It's possible that this is the entire entry, I can't tell.
  • A 1953 obituary in the Journal of the Institution of Electrical Engineers (1953, volume 9, p. 307) - this 3-paragraph obituary in a major publication strikes me as meeting the burden of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

:Guettarda (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::*This is local notability at best. I don't think that being the Chief Engineer of the Jamaica Public Service Company defaults to automatic notability on its own, like other positions such as the president of a country. Has he done anything notable in that position, or was he just doing his job for 24 years? In my opinion, even if these sources were accessible and verifiable, they don't pass the WP:GNG bar. SnottyWong babble 16:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::So you're arguing that being the subject to obituaries in the journals of two international professional organisations is only of "local notability at best"? (Emphasis added, but those are your words). And "local" in this case means "national".

I'm rather puzzled by what you mean when you say "even if these sources were accessible and verifiable, they don't pass the WP:GNG bar". To begin with, I provided you a full reference for the Journal of the Institution of Electrical Engineers obit...a baseless accusing of dishonest like that is a violation of WP:NPA I would strongly suggest you retract that. As for the second part - what part of WP:GNG are you talking about?

::::*"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material - the JIEE obituary "address[es] the subject in detail", as does the Gleaner article.

::::*"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. - A technical journal passes that easily, as does a national newspaper of record.

::::*"Sources," for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. Not a problem. Multiple sources are generally expected. Your statement was predicated on "even if", so yeah, we have multiple sources.

::::*"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject - not a problem.

::::So what part of WP:GNG are you saying this fails "even if these sources were accessible and verifiable"? I'm rather curious. And, by the way, the Chief Engineer of the Jamaica Public Service Company is without a doubt far more notable than the President of Jamaica. The fact that you aren't aware of that...says rather a lot. Guettarda (talk) 18:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Conveniently omitted is the fifth part of that list: ""Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not. Basing an article on obituaries is not ideal and might be consistent with WP:MEMORIAL, as they generally contain facts that may or may not be encyclopedic. Being memorialized in print does not indicate prima facie notability and needs to be supported by other sources that are more than trivial mentions and show something beyond, as stated above, "someone doing their job." Are the positions he held notable? Are the awards he won notable? Are his titles/honors notable? (And can we source our answers to those questions?) That information would help. --Kinu t/c 18:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::::*Also, I hate getting involved, but I see no breach of WP:NPA here. SnottyWong never said the source you provided didn't exist, his statement clearly indicates his position that despite existing, it might not be enough. Semantics. Likewise, he never said anything about President of Jamaica, but rather "president of a country" in generic terms, so I'm not sure where that last statement of yours came from. I ask all parties to please be civil. --Kinu t/c 19:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::::*I am similarly confused by the accusations of personal attacks. I have not accused you of being dishonest, so I'd urge you to calm down and relax. I am simply disagreeing with you about the fact that the sources that were uncovered don't adequately establish notability. Obituaries are not evidence of notable deeds. After all, everyone dies. SnottyWong soliloquize 21:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::::*"Obituaries are not evidence of notable deeds. After all, everyone dies. "
Yes, but most die publically un-noted and un-obituaried. The publication of an obituary, in some journal of note, is a strong indication of a life that was more than this. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::::::*Sorry, but I'm not buying that. Obituaries, taken on their own, do not imply notability. The fact that someone died and other people were notified about it in a journal of an organization of which they were a member doesn't automatically make them notable. Also, I'm not sure where you live, but where I live most people who die get an obituary published about them somewhere, even if it is just in a local newspaper. SnottyWong babble 22:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:* Please pardon my unfamiliarity with the AFD protocol - this is my first time contributing. As the creator of the original article, I had hoped that by initially including the few details I did, it would stir others who had located other information or sources about Mr Campbell to include that information on the page. Full disclosure, creating the article came during family history research (Mr Campbell is an ancestor). I have several primary sources on Mr Campbell's notability, amounting to news clippings from the Gleaner, the extracteded, undated Who's Who biography, and letters written to/from Mr Campbell. The news articles do not appear to have been digitized, and the Electical Engineering journals that are online are sadly out of reach to a non-member such as myself. I am still in the process of gathering the material and hope to contribute further research and details soon. It seems as though Mr Campbell was one of the first electrical engineers in Jamaica, served the industry well over 50 years, remarkable even for the time, and had been consulted on numerous technical issues having to do with the island electrical system including maintaining a 40 Hz system (as opposed to 50 Hz in the UK, and 60 Hz in North America). The masonic involvement is even more difficult to research. I hope to add more sources soon.User:Portcullisguy 19:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:*Guettarda should take note of Andy Dingley's comment above, as an example of an actual personal attack. Andy, have you ever heard of WP:NPP? SnottyWong yak 23:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::: NPP? On a two week old page? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::Yup. The NPP backlog is usually close to a month long. See the [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Special:NewPages&dir=prev&hidepatrolled=1 end of the backlog]. Editors are encouraged to patrol articles at the end of the backlog rather than articles that were created 30 seconds ago. SnottyWong confer 23:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.