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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hessel Hermana

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Wizardman 15:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

=[[Hessel Hermana]]=

:{{la|Hessel Hermana}} ([{{fullurl:Hessel Hermana|wpReason={{urlencode:AfD discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hessel Hermana}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

Not notable. No references. Not meeting inclusion criteria. Jim Carmel (talk) 19:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

:He seems to be a real historical figure. It might be better to merge his article with one on the general history of his place and time, since so little is known about him. Northwestgnome (talk) 19:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

::BTW the article was mistakenly tagged as fiction. Northwestgnome (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

:::This guy never existed. He was invented in the fifteenhundreds. That is fiction. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 00:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep - the statement that he is not notable is directly contradicted by the article content which identifies him as essentially the governor of a province which would satisfy WP:POLITICIAN. As for lack of reliable sources, the article actually does provide a source although the source is not in English. So neither of the nominating criteria are actually valid. A search on [http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=%22Hessel%20Hermana%22&sa=N&tab=wpGoogle Books] returns results, which appear to be in Dutch. So it would appear that additional sourcing is available to somebody that can read them. -- Whpq (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep per Whpq.--Sting Buzz Me... 01:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Significant figure even if the article is in poor condition. Dimadick (talk) 09:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I added various historical texts which place the final battle of Rudolph in 873. Another battle is mentioned taking place in 876. No early chronicle seems to mention Hessel but the battle itself was a historic event. Dimadick (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete This name is not mentioned before 1500, as far as I know. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 18:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Whpq. Notability is asserted and sources are available. Edward321 (talk) 00:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep as the contributor of the English version. This ruler appears in several sources. Even if he is slightly legendary, he is part of a set, and should be kept for completeness. If Pieter Kuiper has sources that indicate his non existence before 1500, he should add that in to the article! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

:There is a nice scholarly paper about Viking rulers in Karolingian lands: {{cite journal|author=Simon Coupland |title=From poachers to gamekeepers: Scandinavian warlords and Carolingian kings |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/1468-0254.00019 |journal=Early Medieval Europe |year=1998 |volume=7 |pages=101-103}} Unfortunately, not avalable online (unlike the dusty 19th-century stuff), but I have read that paper. One of those rulers is Rudolf Haraldsson. Coupland does not mention Hessel Hermana. Conclusion: this Hermana never existed. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 06:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

::Failure to be mentioned is no proof that he did not exist. He was not a Viking, so may not have been considered fro the scholarly article. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

:::That is a statement from formal logic. Coupland devotes two whole pages to Rodulf Haraldsson and half a page to how he met his end in Friesland, referencing several sources. Coupland mentions the anonymous Northman who advised the Frisians, but nothing about Hermana. According to consensus among professional historians, this guy never existed. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 08:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep as an legendary figure--I invite PK to edit it properly to make the status clearDGG (talk) 04:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

:That is not what legendary is. This guy was just invented by some pseudohistorian in the 16th century. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 06:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

  • comment - wikipedia is supposed to cover everything found in an almanac. Hessel Hermana's appearance in many editions of the Frisian Almanac suggests that he should make an appearance, even if he is a more modern creation. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

:[http://www.wumkes.nl/index.php?volg=1&id=51 Friesche Volks-almanak] is an "almanac" in the sense that it is an annual publication. Most of it is filled with litterary and historical essays of local interest, mainly by amateurs. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 07:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.