Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holding space

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:{{la|1=Holding space}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Holding space}})

The article is extremely brief at four sentences; and while I can at least appreciate the addition of citations to the page, I feel that this article does not have enough substance to... hold space in Wikipedia's mainspace. The article appears to be a violator of both WP:TABLOID and WP:RECENT, and I am not convinced that the "holding space" phrase has any present notability independent to the Wicked media tour and subsequent coverage. If the phrase can end up having its own unique notability outside of temporary tabloids and "meme culture", and can endure in the public conscience, then maybe it could have its own page. Even then, it may possibly fit better with Wiktionary... but that must require that the phrase has a serious definition in the first place, in spite of two of the article's sentences (reminder: half of all the article's sentences) are dedicated to explaining how unclear the phrase's definition is. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 02:53, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 29. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 03:07, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Delete: The article shows no evidence for why this would be a notable topic worthy of an article. The article itself even states that "No one seems to fully understand what any of this actually means", so why does it have its own article? —Mjks28 (talk) 03:17, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: Article has much been improved since my initial argument for delete. Appears to fit WP:GNG to me.—Mjks28 (talk) 03:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
• Speedy keep - While the phrase was popularized because of the interview for Wicked and it's big uptick as embraced by the community, the phrase itself actually is not new and the meaning as explained by [https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/between-the-generations/202305/what-does-it-mean-to-hold-space?msockid=2236d385bed6604d0be4c726bf4a610c this article in psychology today] from 2023, and from a quick web search, the term appears to be commonly used in psychology. This also fits the explained meaning of the journalist as explained in the NYTimes [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/25/style/wicked-interview-holding-space.html article about the wicked interview] that the movie and music is "holding space" in a special time right now for the LGBTQ community that is often othered, just as the character Elphaba is in the movie.

:So definitely passes notability, even outside the current use in the Wicked context, the fact that the article was created as a stub, does not mean it's not notable and this was just a quick 5 minute research from me, so it looks like this nomination is failing WP:BEFORE, so let's expand the article content and this AfD should become redundant quickly. Raladic (talk) 03:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

::Addendum, adopted article, added Psychology origin from 2015, which as already mentioned above, matches the explanation of the journalist that the phrase basically means to create a safe space for community. Suggesting WP:HEY is applicable here. Raladic (talk) 03:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Popular culture and Sexuality and gender. Raladic (talk) 03:24, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Raladic (talk) 04:14, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Merge to safe space? Hyperbolick (talk) 09:09, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep per GNG and HEY, thanks to Raladic. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 09:42, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep per GNG. The Wicked film's article now brings up the interview that made the phrase viral. HM2021 (talk) 17:14, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: The strongest case for deletion would be that this violates no neologisms. Since the buren of proof is on the nominator, I think they should form an argument that this is a {{tq|newly formed word, term, or phrase that has achieved popular or institutional recognition and is becoming accepted into mainstream language}}, from the definitional lede at neologism. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NEO and WP:GNG. Despite the efforts to provide sourcing, I see very little here. Indeed, one of the sources/quotes used in the expansion very effectively argues for deletion by its very nature: {{tq|Glamour said, "No one seems to fully understand what any of this actually means — or, for that matter, if it means anything at all. Indeed, that's kind of the beauty of it."[9]}} Even the majority of this skimpy article spends more time trying to explain usage of the term and its spread, rather than any sort of actual concept, an especially difficult task in light of the quote here. There's just nothing here. If it becomes some sort of agreed-upon concept, then it may be worthy of an article, but it's way WP:TOOSOON for one now (maybe forever). 35.139.154.158 (talk) 18:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• :Note that this user is now edit warring trying to remove the origins from psychology from the article and some content from related topic Safe space. Raladic (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• ::No, you. In fact, you're trying to prop up the notability by adding WP:SYNTH to this article linking a different topic. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 19:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• :::I literally talked to a therapist who confirmed the long standing history of the term. The fact that it was coincidentally now used by a journalist in the Wicked context doesn't negate the fact that the term predates it and has a history in psychology. It could even be that the Journalist herself got the term from conversations with a therapist and just didn't recall where she got it from, or it's a freak coincidence, but given that she defined it very similarly to the psychology context, the former seem more likely, but regardless is irrelevant to the notability question that AfD here is answering. Raladic (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete. It's too soon. Popcornfud (talk) 19:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 21:57, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: seems to meet GNG to me. --AntiDionysius (talk) 00:47, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• :WP:ITSNOTABLE 35.139.154.158 (talk) 01:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• ::FWIW, he did quote a policy, which is what the essay you linked encourages. DarmaniLink (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. Reference indicates the term was introduced in 2015, and so WP:RECENT should not apply. Article is still a stub and could use expansion, but there are plenty of stubs kept for years. ES2 (talk) 05:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• :First being used in 2015 doesn't preclude this from being a neologism. Moreover, significant concerns have been raised that there simply is no well-defined topic here...a concern backed up even by one of the sources in the article. None of this !vote really addresses the substance of the issues here. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 12:24, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep: This seems to be not a neologism but a legitimate psychoanalytic term coined by Donald Winnicott in 1960, according to [https://books.google.com/books?id=jEXBmtwYwvAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Joyce+Anne+Slochower%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwzrLBsYSKAxUJETQIHao-AZ4Q6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false Holding and Psychoanalysis], an academic work (republished by Routledge in 2009, original copyright 1996). It is also attributed to Winnicott, though 1971, in [https://books.google.com/books?id=e_r_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA2005&dq=%22holding+space%22+psychology%C2%A0&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqtpnztISKAxVoBDQIHcPQJqMQ6AF6BAgNEAM#v=onepage&q=%22holding%20space%22%20psychology%C2%A0&f=false Exploring Depth Psychology and the Female Self] (first ed. Routledge, 2021). See specifically {{section link|Donald Winnicott|Concept of holding}}. Apologies to {{U|Raladic}} but I don't think the Psychology Today source accurately describes the origin of the term, perhaps Plett didn't fully credit Winnicott, or they didn't convey the credit. In any event, Google Books found several other references that might be helpful, including Holding space: On Loving, Dying, and Letting Go. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:57, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• :No apology necessary, it was just the first quick thing I found that drew the link to psychology as its origin and mentioned that it was popularized in 2015, but I didn't quickly find the actual root, though I did use the word popularized, not coined in respect of the fact that it must have predated it.
• :Feel free to expand the artice on what you found and remove the 2015 neologism cat if you haven't already. Raladic (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• ::I expanded it a little bit now with the Winnicott origin, but other editors should feel free to add more on the evolution of the concept of "holding" and its evolution into the modern term of "holding space". Raladic (talk) 16:42, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• :::Which I have reverted per WP:NOR. The phrase "holding space" occurs in Winnicot a total of 3 times on 2 pages...there's absolutely nothing to indicate that it has anything to do with the topic of the article (again, whatever that even is). 35.139.154.158 (talk) 17:20, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• ::::Have you read the other follow up psychology books and refs?
• ::::Just because the phrase was also now used in the context of Wicked, does not negate the existence in psychology that predates it. Raladic (talk) 17:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Psychology-related deletion discussions. Raladic (talk) 16:48, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:GNG and Raladic. The term/phrase is notable, and the only noted issues were mainly with the version prior to the AfD notice - Special:Diff/1259986289. The initial concerns are no longer present. DarmaniLink (talk) 02:08, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.