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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holiday Inn Fire 1978, Greece, New York

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

=[[Holiday Inn Fire 1978, Greece, New York]]=

:{{la|Holiday Inn Fire 1978, Greece, New York}} – (View AfDView log){{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/reports/afd/{{urlencode:Holiday Inn Fire 1978, Greece, New York}}.html|2=Afd statistics}}

:({{Find sources|Holiday Inn Fire 1978, Greece, New York}})

Non-notable fire. Orange Mike | Talk 02:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:Neutral - would likely support with a rewrite. Ten were killed, making this a little more notable, in my view. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 02:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:response - on a global basis, a fire in which only ten people died is just another slow news day. I realize they were North Americans, but "ten people died" is not an assertion of notability in any way. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Oh, I agree with you completely. But I'm willing to give a little good faith that something could be turned up to indicate more notability before throwing an article to the AFD wolves. - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 03:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:10 people may seme trivial to some people, considering that some natural disasters which kill thousands are not even documented on here but the National Fire Association considers 10 or more people killed in a hotel fire to be notable [http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/press%20room/hotelfirefatalitiesreport.pdf here]. If you consider how many hotel fires have ever taken place in the United States, literally thousands upon thousands I'm certain, obviously those listed have some claim to notability as fire incidents in hotels over the years in my view.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

::: On further examination, I can't say keep. The "I realize they were North Americans" (Canadians staying in a U.S. motel) comment is kind of another way of saying that if this had been a hotel fire in Pakistan, it probably wouldn't be notable. While that doesn't mean that we should apply bias , the only reason this came up at all was because someone made a Facebook page about the case and it came back in the news recently [http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/523198/facebook-group-calls-attention-to-1978-hotel-fire/] [http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/896424--push-on-to-solve-ny-arson-case-that-killed-7-canadians] and [http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20101127/NEWS01/11270320/1002/NEWS]. What's striking is a lack of notability that surprised the reporters of those articles. The Star noted that "There are no monuments or memorials to the fire victims in Greece. A Red Lobster and another hotel stand where the Holiday Inn once did," while another article quotes someone as saying "This is one of the worst hotel fires in Monroe County history, and if you Google it, it's like it never happened... This is a major event and it seems like it's been forgotten and it absolutely shouldn't be that way." For whatever reason, this never really went beyond WP:NEWS after November and December 1978, either in the U.S. or Canada. Applying the same standard that we would if the fire had happened in 2008 and was, sad to say, ignored thereafter, it doesn't pass the notability test. Mandsford 17:24, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Weak keep or merge Per the sources in book publications I've added and recognition by the National Fire Agency as one of only several hotel fires in 70 years to kill 10 or more people. I think that just about qualifies it for notability myself given the book dcoumention on it not to mention the very breif discsison of it in a book on human engineering [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WoNTkA6ANQUC&pg=PA78&dq=Holiday+Inn+Fire+1978&hl=en&ei=NWf5TOOLL9GLhQfg67C0CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Holiday%20Inn%20Fire%201978&f=false here]. If it was a very low scale incident I doubt anybody would have heard of it to write about it in their book. It is covered in multiple books but admittedly it is hardly Great Fire of London... and I'm not convinced that covering such events as isolated incidents is worth a seperate article. Personally I think this information would be better in a List of (notable) hotel fires in the United States summarising those documented in that Fire Agency summary. Either way I think the existing info and sources are encyclopedic, I'd support a merge into an article about the History of hotel fires in the United States, that's the best way to use this material I think... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Merge or otherwise Delete - it doesn't appear to justify its own article and I would endorse the merge proposal by Dr. Blofeld.  Velella  Velella Talk   22:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has long included an article on a 1983 explosion in Buffalo, New York that killed seven people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Division_Street_explosion

Seems like a double standard to not include this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.169.161 (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, I'd say this article is more notable than the other, which looks to fail WP:N and should really be prodded - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 00:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Merge. Merging (in much briefer form) into History of hotel fires in the United States and eventually to List of hotel fires in the United States is OK, or it could be merged into Greece (town), New York. A lot of the text article is padding at the moment to establish a notability that doesn't really exist, at least not enough for an independent article. Voceditenore (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

:::Yeah, exactly what I think, Its the sort of thing which is worth mentioning in a fire history article or history of Greece, New York but only briefly. I agree, it isn't notable enough for an independent article on it, unlike MGM Grand fire...♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep clear keep, not a weak keep. Typically, we accept (or at least ought to accept) outside authoritative sources for determining the degree of importance, rather than analyze the evidence ourselves. This should especially true with NOT NEWS, where the criterion of long-lasting importance is concerned--such sources are the best ones to determine it. the only alternative is the personal views of whomever should happen to be interested in a given AfD discussion--that is an extremely weak criterion, & if there is anything better we ought to use it. If NFPA considers 10 to be a suitable cut-off for listing in the list of worst disasters, 10 it is. If they say 10, we have no basis for saying >10, except our individual personal inclinations. (myself, I have no fixed idea of where I personally think the line should be, so I go by the sources. if I did have a personal opinion of what ought to be important in this area, I think I would still find it necessary to go by the sources.) One excellent source like that is sufficient, as long as there is also enough material for an article, which there is. We have the rule that the GNG has been modified by NOT NEWS, as it certainly ought to be, for otherwise we would be wildly inclusive of the utterly unimportant. But the problem is that some of the key criteria in not news are totally non-objective and require guesswork. Consistency is a virtue in reference works, and we should be glad of any opportunity to find something consistent where we do not have to use our own guesswork or predilections. DGG ( talk ) 15:52, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep The sourcing clearly demonstrates that the topic is notable, being addressed in detail by multiple reliable and independent sources. The nomination is thus counterfactual. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per the NFPA source currently in the article. 10 fatalities per incident is a rather high bar to set, and this particular event meets it. Jclemens (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per DGG.4meter4 (talk) 18:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge into History of hotel fires in the United States. The subject technically appears to meet WP:GNG, however, Wikipedia might be better served if the event were addressed in context of the larger article. Location (talk) 19:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.