Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonathan Pageau

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Article about a non-notable religious leader and speaker. Fails WP:GNG. Sources are self-published and opinion piece. No actual WP:SIGCOV on the subject. Maybe a case of WP:TOOSOON. Jamiebuba (talk) 07:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, France, and Canada. Jamiebuba (talk) 07:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors and Religion. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
• Comment we can agree that Jonathan Pageau is not world famous. At all. However within a specialist sphere of religious communities interested in orthodox and catholic art, as seen by treatments in various religious journals, the artist has received significant coverage. Hence the artist's thought and work is discussed in the following reliable sources:

:* {{Cite web |last=East |first=Brad |date=2024-05-08 |title=Digital Lectors for a Postliterate Age |url=https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/may-web-only/digital-lectors-postliterate-age-bible-project-pageau.html |access-date=2024-06-24 |website=ChristianityToday.com |language=en}}

:* {{Cite web |last=Brierley |first=Justin |title=I saw Jordan Peterson at the O2 last night. He's asking all the right questions (a good part of which is about Pageau) |url=https://www.premierchristianity.com/reviews/i-saw-jordan-peterson-at-the-o2-last-night-hes-asking-all-the-right-questions/16657.article |access-date=2024-03-13 |website=Premier Christianity |language=en}}

:* {{Cite web |last=Dreher |first=Rod |date=2024-03-02 |title=Jonathan Pageau: A Prophet Rises From Quebec and YouTube |url=https://europeanconservative.com/articles/dreher/jonathan-pageau-a-prophet-rises-from-quebec-and-youtube/ |access-date=2024-03-13 |website=europeanconservative.com |language=en-US}}

:* {{Cite web |date=2024-04-09 |title=Jordan Peterson and the Apocalypse |last=Taylor |first=Darrick |url=https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-and-the-apocalypse |access-date=2024-05-21 |website=Crisis Magazine |language=en-US}}

:* {{Cite web |last=Carr |first=Kathleen |title=Jonathan Pageau |url=https://www.catholicartinstitute.org/pageau |access-date=2024-03-13 |website=Catholic Art Institute |language=en}}

:* {{Cite web |last=Barron |first=Bishop Robert |date=2021-10-13 |title=How to live a meaningful life |url=https://catholicvoiceomaha.com/how-to-live-a-meaningful-life/ |access-date=2024-05-21 |website=The Catholic Voice |language=en-US}}

:* {{Cite web |title='Living Tradition' Symposium in Charleston, SC |url=http://orthochristian.com/79686.html |access-date=2024-05-31 |website=OrthoChristian.Com}}

:And there are also primary sources that have been used in the current iteration of the article, but they are not needed to establish notability, rather they seem to be used for descriptive statements of facts. I believe from the above sources that it's established the subject is notable, albeit within a very particular field of endeavour. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 01:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

::One perspective is clear: while Pageau's outlook is primarily religious, much of what he has done is applicable to secular art as well. It is erroneous to characterize his impact as only 'religious' (personally, I find such characterization as typical of the non-NPOV shown by people hostile to religion).

::I found the concluding pages of his Snow White and the Widow Queen - a non-religious text, I might add - to be clever and original. More books in this series of fairy tales are still to be published.

::Yes, I can see where people might conclude that WP:TOOSOON might apply, but he already has a substantial published body of work - well, more substantial than my four unpublished books (ha!). Also, he has been interviewed over and over by and collaborated with people judged to be notable such as Jordan Peterson, Robert Barron, Paul Kingsnorth, and Gavin Ashenden: they think he is notable.

::Thank you for listening. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 02:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

:::Nice to have you join in the discussion @Tfdavisatsnetnet - I know you're strongly interested in this topic. To be fair to the administrators looking at the discussion here, they will only be interested in whether the subject of the article is notable, as seen by good secondary sources. However, you do make a valuable point here, in that known writers write about the subject at hand, so [https://www.theamericanconservative.com/sacred-and-the-real/ Rod Dreher writes about Jonathan Pageau] and [https://todayscatholic.org/author/bishopbarron/page/3/ Robert Barron talks about (and talks with) Jonathan Pageau] and [https://paulkingsnorth.substack.com/p/intermission-a-summer-event?utm_source=publication-search Paul Kingsnorth writes about Jonathan Pageau], all of which would indicate, to me, that there is substantial coverage of the subject (while not being exactly world famous). MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

::::I think it comes down to: do YouTube videos count as much as printed material? If so, then Jonathan Pageau IS notable, despite the fact that the sources are primary and not secondary. Again, personally I find him to be far more notable than many others. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 04:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

:::::Don't think you need to point youtube videos. More relevant to point to places where known thinkers are writing about Jonathan Pageau, which certainly includes:

:::::* [https://www.theamericanconservative.com/fighting-for-the-real/ Rod Dreher describing Jonathan Pageau as — for him, as a writer at least — one of the most important public intellectuals]

:::::* [https://todayscatholic.org/how-to-live-a-meaningful-life/ Robert Barton describing Jonathan Pageau as a leading thinker on meaning]

:::::I don't know of an article by Jordan Peterson where he describes the significance of Pageau's work to him, but of course he does [https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6516e3215981fa376a3ea80d/t/653d0f1c1d77eb666a90c11b/1698500422709/The+Subsidiary+Hierarchy+-+Jonathan+Pageau+and+Jordan+Peterson+-+ARC+Research+Paper co-author a paper with Pageau here, which alone makes him significant, given that Peterson is notable]. Still, ultimately, what makes Pageau notable is that he has received coverage from reliable sources in the area of religion like [https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/may-web-only/digital-lectors-postliterate-age-bible-project-pageau.html Christianity Today]. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 00:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

::::::An update I did a comb through the article today, and removed material from the Orthodox Arts Journal as the subject is a member of the editorial team. Turns out everything from that source was found in better sources, which I've now added. So, the article now leans on:

::::::* Several articles by Terry Mattingly, a subject matter specialist on religion in the United States, in particular [https://infoweb-newsbank-com.rp.nla.gov.au/apps/news/document-view?p=AWGLNB&docref=news%2F16FE07FF7A25AA78 "On Religion" published in the Daily Review], [https://infoweb-newsbank-com.rp.nla.gov.au/apps/news/document-view?p=AWGLNB&docref=news%2F1913F1EFCCCE4648 New telescopes, old question: Where is heaven? in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette] and "On Religion: Facing modern chaos, priests need old symbols and truths" in the Tahlequah Daily Press

::::::* 'Christianity Today' and its article [https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/may-web-only/digital-lectors-postliterate-age-bible-project-pageau.html Digital Lectors for a Postliterate Age by Brad East]

::::::* 'The American Conservative', particularly its article "Portrait of the Artist as Iconographer: Searching for meaning in the postmodern wasteland" by Bradley Anderson

::::::* [https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/article/christ-and-consciousness/ The Gospel Coalition, especially its article "Christ and Consciousness" by Phil Cotnoir]

::::::* 'Institute of Public Affairs Review' "Liberalism to the Barricades, Again" by Scott Hargreaves . 76 (1): 34.

::::::* [https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/the-times/my-long-night-with-jordan-peterson-and-his-superfans/news-story/8b7f4a5ab02c7f7d4decd84564a79d13 My long night with Jordan Peterson — and his superfans, originally in 'The Times' but also in 'The Australian']] by James Marriott.

::::::* The British online publishing house 'Premier Christianity', in particular the article [https://www.premierchristianity.com/reviews/i-saw-jordan-peterson-at-the-o2-last-night-hes-asking-all-the-right-questions/16657.article I saw Jordan Peterson at the O2 last night. He’s asking all the right questions" by Justin Brierley.]]

::::::* The European Conservative, with regards [https://europeanconservative.com/articles/dreher/jonathan-pageau-a-prophet-rises-from-quebec-and-youtube/ its article "Jonathan Pageau: A Prophet Rises From Quebec and YouTube"]] by Rod Dreher

::::::* [https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-and-the-apocalypse Jordan Peterson and the Apocalypse: What I learned at the Symbolic World Summit]] by the academic Darrick Taylor.

::::::* [https://www.thechainedmuse.com/about A book review of Pageau's work in the online poetry journal from 'Age of Muses'] by David B. Gosselin

::::::* The journal, 'Modern Age' and its piece from 2022 by Grayson Quay, "The Perils of Re-Enchantment: Beyond the end of materialism, G.K. Chesterton and Darren Aronofsky see nightmares: Modern Age".

::::::Acknowledging that that secondary sources like the above are what we use to settle WP:GNG I believe we now have the sources required, following the outline in such as are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject, as per WP:BASIC. When it comes to primary sources, following the guidance, only a few have been used and only with regards straightforward statements of facts, these include

::::::* [https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2022/11/02/jonathan-pageau-on-icons-political-dehumanisation-and-befriending-jordan-peterson The piece "Jonathan Pageau on icons, political dehumanisation, and befriending Jordan Peterson" by the broadcaster Elizabeth Oldfield in 'Theos']

::::::* The Greek online journal 'Antifono', and [https://antifono.gr/i-orthodoxia-einai-to-teleftaio-ochyro-tou-christianismou/ its 2022 article by Kornarou titled "Orthodoxy is the last stronghold of Christianity"]

::::::In short, revisions and edits are concluded for now and I submit the article has been improved and reasonable concerns about the notability of the subject have been addressed. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 06:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Having become well aware of Pageau through both the religious and public intellectual worlds and watched/listened to him on various platforms, I am very surprised that this article is marked for possible deletion. The article itself and the discussion above show that there are numerous reliable sources establishing notability. This article should definitely exist, and of course it can always be improved, as all articles can be! Alex IslaCara (talk) 17:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
• :I'm just a casual Wikipedia reader and was surprised as well. Never heard of this individual until yesterday and I didn't want to immediately launch into his YouTube videos, so I'm glad there was a Wikipedia page I could read. Please don't delete it. 2600:8800:49B:7800:3418:2EA0:3C86:BCCC (talk) 21:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 08:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Keep given the subject's notability is established by wide coverage. On top of being discussed in specialist journal articles (such as 'Modern Age') Pageau has received coverage in reliable sources [https://infoweb-newsbank-com.rp.nla.gov.au/apps/news/document-view?p=AWGLNB&docref=news%2F16FE07FF7A25AA78 here], [https://infoweb-newsbank-com.rp.nla.gov.au/apps/news/document-view?p=AWGLNB&docref=news%2F1913F1EFCCCE4648 here], [https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/may-web-only/digital-lectors-postliterate-age-bible-project-pageau.html here], [https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/article/christ-and-consciousness/ here], [https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/the-times/my-long-night-with-jordan-peterson-and-his-superfans/news-story/8b7f4a5ab02c7f7d4decd84564a79d13 here], [https://www.premierchristianity.com/reviews/i-saw-jordan-peterson-at-the-o2-last-night-hes-asking-all-the-right-questions/16657.article here], [https://europeanconservative.com/articles/dreher/jonathan-pageau-a-prophet-rises-from-quebec-and-youtube/ here] [https://catholicherald.co.uk/as-art-degenerates-around-us-so-too-does-unity-in-the-church/ here] and [https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-and-the-apocalypse here]. MatthewDalhousie (talk)

• Keep because subject is referenced in new publications, such as The Classroom as Cosmos by David Mathwin, published by Kalos Publishing in 2024. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WilliamSimonson (talk • contribs) 06:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC) — WilliamSimonson (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep - Just because the references are from niche publications, does not diminish them from going towards GNG, which this person meets.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 10:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - Jonathan Pageau is the only Orthodox icon carver in Canada, and he's received significant coverage for that in reliable publications such as the [https://www.catholicartinstitute.org/pageau Catholic Art Institute ], where he was featured artist. Other than being a distinguished artist, he also is active in teaching iconography and the methodology of Orthodox art, by appearing in important religious organizations such as the Institute of Sacred Arts of the [https://www.svots.edu/headlines/orthodox-liturgical-artists-discuss-integrating-influences-east-and-west-creating-sacred St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary]. Because this is reported, the subject is notable. MariaMKorn (talk) — MariaMKorn (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep because there is significant coverage in multiple sources with editorial integrity, including (but not limited to) The European Conservative and Crisis Magazine. There are many updated sources in the main article that reflect this, since the deletion discussion began on 23 June 24.Sir Awesomness (talk) 14:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC) — Sir_awesomness (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.