Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Judith Blake (2nd nomination)

{{AFD help}}

:{{la|Judith Blake}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Judith_Blake_(2nd_nomination) Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Judith Blake}})

Fails WP:NPOL having only been a local councillor. Citations are mostly local newspapers with WP:ROUTINE coverage. Bondegezou (talk) 11:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Bondegezou (talk) 11:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

• Keep: not just a councillor but the leader of Leeds City Council, a major metropolitan district in the UK. PamD 13:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

::WP:NPOL doesn't say council leaders get in. Bondegezou (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:::{{re|PamD|Bondegezou}} It also doesn't say council leaders don't get in. ミラP 17:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Why did I say that? ミラP 20:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

::::It does say that. "Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or sub-national (e.g., province- or state-wide) office, or have been members of legislative bodies at those levels" are notable. "Just being an elected local official [...] does not guarantee notability". Leader of Leeds council is not a province or state-wide office. Bondegezou (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

::::"This role is notable because NPOL doesn't explicitly say it isn't" is not how NPOL works. If NPOL does not affirmatively say that a political role is "inherently" notable, then it automatically is not. Specifically, it's always been held at AFD that leaders of city councils are not inherently more notable than other city councillors are: council leader or not, a local councillor's notability still depends on showing a depth and range of coverage that constitutes credible evidence of nationalized significance. Bearcat (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• Weak keep - several of the refs are dead-links and one appears to relate to a different person altogether......but being the leader of a major metropolitan council and being the first female leader of the City seems to strongly imply notability. I would suggest another trawl through the search engines for better refs. If we have a good BBC ref then there must be others of equal merit  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   16:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

::The article has been up for over two years (that was after it was previously deleted in 2008) and we ain't seen further references yet. Bondegezou (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:::The BBC piece in question is 4 sentences long. The other 3 media citations are local newspapers. Bondegezou (talk) 11:25, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Weak keep per Keep for a different reason than PamD and Velella. While being a leader of a city council is not notable, she holds a CBE which establishes notability. ミラP 17:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

::I'm not aware of an accepted notability guideline saying that. Can you point to one? Bondegezou (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:::{{re|Bondegezou}} Probably not but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=CBE&prefix=Wikipedia+talk%3ANotability+%28people%29%2F&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1 these discussions on the CBE should help.] ミラP 23:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

::::So... there would appear to be no consensus on the suggestion that a CBE confers automatic notability. Bondegezou (talk) 23:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

:::::{{re|Bondegezou}} There are some discussions that generated a general consensus in favor of "CBE=WP-notable", but the most recent one should help. ミラP 00:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

::::::Thanks. I've read the discussion. I see some editors arguing that a CBE should constitute automatic notability, but others argue against that. I don't see a consensus. No such rule has entered guidelines. Bondegezou (talk) 09:50, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

:::::::{{re|Bondegezou}} I trust it is because WP:ANYBIO#1 doesn't say which awards explicitly - it's just deliberately vague and its interpretation left to the discretion of communities of WP editors. ミラP 01:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

:::::::{{re|Bondegezou}} Actually, I don't see anyone arguing against it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

::::::::Wikipedia talk:Notability (awards and honors) sees argument against automatic notability for CBEs. Bondegezou (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

:::::::::Which wasn't mentioned above. You will, however, note that almost everyone who actually knows what they're talking about agrees that CBEs and above are notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:57, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

• Keep She has a CBE. scope_creep^Talk 10:39, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

::Honours are awarded twice a year. The [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812602/BD19_Queens_List__1_.pdf most recent list] had 109 CBEs awarded. Looking at the most recent list, I see no articles for Morris Angel, Elizabeth Barnes (she's not this Elizabeth Barnes), Michael Barton, Paul Bates, Graeme Biggar, Stephen Billingham, Simon Blanchflower, Catherine Bradley or Philip Brook. That's the first page: there are 10 names, and only one has an article (Bryan Appleyard). Wikipedia does not have articles for the vast majority of people with CBEs. We do have notability criteria for politicians like Blake, WP:NPOL, and she fails them. Bondegezou (talk) 11:39, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

:::What makes an honour a notability-granter does not depend on how many possessors of that honour already have Wikipedia articles today, but rather how exclusive it is compared to the potential pool - in this case the entire population of the United Kingdom. CBE is one of only three capped levels in the Order of the British Empire, the others being KBE and DBE.

:::If you sum the three caps - 8,960 CBEs, 845 K/DCs, 300 K/DGCs - and divide it by the current population of the UK (66.44 mil), then you'll see there will always be one CBE/KC/KGC for more than 6,575 people at a time. Compare that to one BLP for every 8,060 people on Earth, and that's not even taking into account the ones who are technically WP-notable but still have no WP-articles. And please, take a closer look at the evidence I just presented that says CBEs are notable. ミラP 01:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

:::{{re|Bondegezou}} Forgive me, but this seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. It's a work in progress. Just because someone does not have an article yet in no way means they're not notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

::::Sure, WP:WIP, but if the vast majority of people with CBEs (90% on a small sample) don't have articles, that does rather suggest that most people with CBEs cannot support articles. Do you really think at some future date all those people will have articles created? Bondegezou (talk) 18:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

:::::Even Jimmy Wales agrees with me: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Orders,_decorations,_and_medals/Archive_6#2000_New_Year_Honours! Bondegezou (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

::::::{{re|Bondegezou}} That discussion is from 2010. The six discussions I pointed out are from 2014 and afterwards. ミラP 19:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

::::::Jimmy Wales is neither British nor necessarily knowledgeable about the British honours system. And yes, I do really think that one day all (or most) of these people will have articles created about them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:00, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

• Delete a local politician with nothing in the article shows anything noteworthy and with really no national exposure. MilborneOne (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

::{{re|MilborneOne}} {{tq|nothing in the article shows anything noteworthy}} Except the CBE. I'll refer you to the evidence below that shows that CBEs are notable. ミラP 01:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Delete. Leeds is not a global city for the purposes of handing its city councillors an "inherent" notability pass under NPOL #2, so the notability test she would have to fulfill is being the subject of enough substantive reliable source coverage to make her significantly more notable than the norm for city councillors. That's not what this article is showing, however; the strongest source (BBC) is just a short blurb, and none of the other sources are adding anything out of the ordinary for what every city councillor could always show. And furthermore, we do not have an established consensus that the CBE is a notability-guaranteeing honour in and of itself — it, again, can be enough if the article can be very well-sourced, but is not a guaranteed inclusion freebie that exempts a person from having to show more substantive and detailed and wide-ranging sources than this. Bearcat (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

::{{re|Bearcat}} These evidences prove that this is the pretty much most likely the case: ミラP 01:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2014#The_person_has_received_a_well-known_and_significant_award_or_honor,_or_has_been_nominated_for_one_several_times.: {{tq|It has generally been held in AfDs that the CBE or higher qualifies for this criterion (i.e. any knighthood, baronetage or peerage, or the CBE, CVO, CIE, CMG, CSI, CB, CH or OM). Plus gallantry awards as per WP:SOLDIER (i.e. one first-level or two second-level awards)}}

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2016#MBE: {{tq|[T]he MBE (or OBE) does not confer inherent notability. Consensus is, however, that the CBE (and above) does. Any honours do, of course, contribute to notability.}}

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2017#Notability_in_Knight's_Cross_Holder_Articles: {{tq|The CBE is invariably considered to be notable. Few awards are given automatically, with the exception of some very senior posts that invariably carry (or, more often, carried) knighthoods.}}

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2018#BBC_100_Women: {{tq|We consider the CBE to meet WP:ANYBIO #1, and that's technically about the UK's twentieth highest award! It's all about context.}}

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2018#Notability_of_British_knights: {{tq|We have always considered that, as far as the British honours system goes, WP:ANYBIO #1 covers anyone with a CBE or above. That has been established over the course of many AfDs and clearly includes all knights. If they're notable enough to have received an honour this high then they're notable enough for Wikipedia. They're not given out with the rations.}} and in response to a counter-argument, {{tq|[A]n honour is never "routinely awarded". Many lieutenant-colonels, commanders and wing commanders do not have an MBE; many colonels etc do not have a CBE.}}

::#Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_2019#ANYBIO#1_-_"significant_award_or_honor": {{tq|An MBE or OBE generally doesn't, but a CBE or KBE (or CB, CMG, CVO, etc) almost certainly does.}}

:Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. ミラP 01:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Keep - I added a bit to the article. Clearly notable.

:*[https://www.wharfedaleobserver.co.uk/news/15363948.queens-honour-for-otley-resident-and-city-council-leader-judith-blake/ CBE in 2017]

:*[https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/latest-news/judith-blake-from-the-leeds-united-terraces-to-the-corridors-of-power-1-8954864 Yorkshire post]

:*[https://northernballet.com/media-releases/2019-04-25/northern-ballet-appoints-five-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors Serves on the board of the Northern Ballet] Lightburst (talk) 01:34, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Keep. We have always held that the CBE or above (but not the MBE or OBE) meets the criteria of WP:ANYBIO #1. These are not common awards given the population of the UK. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:28, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Keep she has held many different positions on the council and is currently the leader, and is a CBE. Also, she is the first woman to hold the position. - Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 07:30, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
• Keep - As has been pointed out above, historically CBE's have been kept as inherently notable. Aside from that she is the leader of the city council, not just simply a member. While Leeds also has a mayor, according to Leeds City Council#Lord Mayor of Leeds, and the next section in the article, the mayor is a ceremonial position, and the true political leader of the city is the Council Leader. Historically, the leaders of cities with a population over 700,000 are considered inherently notable.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:01, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

::WP:NPOL establishes notability for "Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or sub-national (e.g., province- or state-wide) office". Leader of Leeds city council does not meet that. I see no reference to 700,000 in the current WP:NPOL. Leeds is only just bigger than a 700,000 population and the leader of a city council in the UK has much less power than similar roles in other countries. The UK has relatively weak local government powers. We don't generally consider council leaders notable in UK politics AfDs. Bondegezou (talk) 20:21, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.