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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kesen dialect

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I don't see how we can judge on the reality of the dialect from the information here, but seems possible to be improved sufficiently by editing. DGG ( talk ) 03:11, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

=[[Kesen dialect]]=

:{{la|Kesen dialect}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Kesen dialect}})

This Kesen dialect seems to be a conceit made by a docotr named Harutsugu Yamaura. He apparently has no linguistic background, and his "self-declared language" has not been recognized or commented on by others. Every single citation is of one of the doctor's books and the external links seem to lead to commercial websites. The dubious nature of this article was noted back in 2008, but the Wikipedians around then simply moved it from "Kesen language" or something like that to its current location, and the article is still written as if it were an independent language. This goes against WP:NOTE and the "reactions" section might violate WP:OR. While it is certainly possible that a dialect of Japanese known as Kesen exists, this article has nothing to do with it, and it should be scrubbed. Hermione is a dude (talk) 13:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. —Angr (talk) 11:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Delete unless information on the actual dialect of Kesen replaces the current article before this AFD is over. —Angr (talk) 11:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. This appears to be just one of the hundreds of regional dialects of Japanese, and all of the descriptive work done on it appears to stem from one person. That doesn't rise to the necessary level of notability, as far as I can tell. Cnilep (talk) 00:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

:*This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:45, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Weak keep. I don't understand the arguments for deletion. While there are many regional Japanese dialects, most have not been described, unlike the Kesen dialect. The work of the good doctor has attracted at least some attention from linguists, who appear to consider it a serious contribution. I agree that the notability is marginal, although I also see references in Japanese news sources, like Asahi Shimbun. The current text of our Wikipedia article makes a curious distinction between a language supposed to have been "invented" by Yamaura and the disappearing regional vernacular in Kesen; however, as reported by reliable sources, Yamaura just provided a description of the existing vernacular as he found it, his only "invention" being the development of an orthography.  --Lambiam 13:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: Many dialects have been described by dedicated amateur linguists with an interest in the dialect of their own region. Carroll actually alludes to this ("One example of the movements springing up all over rural Japan is in the Kesen area of Iwate Prefecture in the Tohoku Region" (p. 14)), and I can attest to two other such locally published descriptions in rural areas where I have lived. That said, the two sources added by Lambiam do seem to go some way toward establishing wider notability. I am concerned, though, that the current article seems to be as much about Yamaura sensei as it is about the Kesen language variety. That's not a reason for deletion, but it may suggest changing the Infobox and re-editing the lead, for example. Cnilep (talk) 00:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: It's not just the lead that needs re-editing; this article is more about Dr. Yamaura than it is about any dialect of Japanese. If the Kesen dialect is real then it deserves an article, and if the doctor's writings are notable then it should be included in that article. However, the article that currently exists is extremely misleading and should be scrubbed. Hermione is a dude (talk) 17:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Keep as per Lambian.  My response is based only on reading the above AfD comments, so discount accordingly.  Dialects are encyclopedic.  The connection between the Dr. and the dialect, and the WP:DUE thereof, is an editorial decision, and is not a reason to delete.  Since there is a strong connection between the two, it is reasonable to have them together, with a redirect from one to the other.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment After 15 days with reasonable but not overwhelming arguments in both directions, it seems appropriate to close this AfD as no consensus. Lambian has made some useful changes to the page. If this discussion closes, I (and I hope others) will be encouraged to make further improvements. Cnilep (talk) 01:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.