Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kris Johnson (video game developer)

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Does not meet WP:NBIO- coverage is largely focussing on the games rather than the individual. MrsSnoozyTurtle (talk) 07:21, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:08, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:08, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:09, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose deletion - Kris Johnson is a video game pioneer who played a notable role in both the gaming industry and the technology/startup landscape within Utah. The article was intended to convey this information and was modeled after other biographies found on Wikipedia for similarly important industry personalities (e.g., Will Harvey). The article describes Mr. Johnson’s history and contains numerous citations, not to mention cross links to several other Wikipedia pages that mention him by name. He is a noteworthy figure in the gaming industry. Contrary to the reason cited for deletion, the article mostly contains information on his background and accomplishments, not just his game creations. The article only references the games and aside from a few high points does not describe them in detail as many have their own Wikipedia articles.

According to Wikipedia’s notability (person) policy/page, the topic of a biography should be “worthy of notice” who is “significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention.” For “creative professionals” like Johnson, a person “is likely to be notable” if “the person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work” and such work has been the subject of multiple independent articles or reviews. Johnson’s body of work in the video game industry meets this criteria as can be seen in the dozens of published reviews cited in the Wikipedia articles for his games. His body of work renders him notable and deserving of an article. Thank you for your consideration. Sandpiper259 (talk) 08:40, 23 April 2021

• Keep - Article seems to have appropriate references. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
• : {{Ping|HumanBodyPiloter5}} Have you checked the sources? They are clearly not appropriate. IceWelder [✉] 09:52, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
• : {{Ping|IceWelder}} References have been revised to include more citations directly linking Johnson to his companies and games, including his role as lead programmer. I could also cite digital copies of user manuals for certain games, which list Johnson as the programmer in the credits, but thus far have not done so as I haven’t seen this type of primary source used in articles for other game developers. Sandpiper259 (talk)19:00, 26 April 2021

::: Sandpiper259: Please be aware that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an accepted argument in deletion discussions. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle (talk) 09:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

::: MrsSnoozyTurtle: Thank you for the clarification. Reference has been added for award-winning game cited. Specifics for most of the other games listed have been left to their individual and linked Wiki articles as suggested was appropriate in your article deletion request. Regards, Sandpiper259 (talk) 08:10 27 April 2021

• Delete per nom. Almost all sources (reliability concerns aside) do not even mention Johnson. In most cases, there is a random source that marginally talks about a topic (e.g. Animal Jam - Play Wild! mentioned in connection to an award) that is used to make a claim about Johnson (e.g. that he directed the game and a related one) although the source says no such thing. Consider this fragment: "In 1999, Johnson founded Cobalt Interactive to focus on the confluence of advertising, gaming, and education. Cobalt produced Cap’n Crunch’s Crunchling Adventure for Quaker Oats Company, which was enthusiastically received ..." - the cited sources are a user-written gameplay overview of the game mentioned and a CD rip of another game. Neither source mentions Johnson's role, Cobalt Interactive's founding year, or any sort of reception.

: The only sources that actually discuss Johnson are Dreamcast Live and Retro Gamer. The former is an interview (so it does not add not notability) with questionable reliability that is mostly about the game Red Arena. Furthermore, the article cites this interview for claims it does not contains, e.g. that Johnson was born in New Jersey and grew up in various states - the interview says nothing in this regard. I couldn't verify some elements from the Retro Gamer sources either, such as that Johnson designed a game called Junkman in 1984. The majority of the Retro Gamer-sourced content is about Beyond Games rather than Johnson.

: Boiling the article down to the content that is actually about Johnson (not his company or its games) and is verifiable would, at best, leave the single-digit number of sentences that he studied at the University of Utah and founded Beyond Games in 1991. I concur with the nomination that the article fails WP:NBIO (or WP:GNG in general) and should be deleted. The author, Sandpiper259, claims above that Johnson is a significant figure in the field but did not provide any reliable sources that verify this. IceWelder [✉] 09:52, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

:* {{Ping|IceWelder}} As noted above, references have been expanded to better link Johnson to his work. The article has also been redacted and revised in an attempt to address issues raised in your discussion. Sandpiper259 (talk) 08:15, 27 April 2021

::: {{Ping|Sandpiper259}} A breakdown of the new sources:

:::* [https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76583650/salt-lake-video-game-maker-finds/ The Salt Lake Tribune (1)] – Interview with Johnson about Beyond Games; no coverage about him apart from his age

:::* GameSpy – Company-provided overview for Beyond Games (primary source by proxy); Johnson is only name-dropped once

:::* MMORPG.com – Unreliable source; interview; Johnson is only name-dropped once

:::* Infinitgamer – Proxy of the Beyond Games Wikipedia article (tertiary source)

:::* AtariAge – Game manual (primary source)

:::* beyondgames.com – Company website (primary source)

:::* VentureBeat – Johnson is only name-dropped once

:::* [https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76583708/the-surprise-inside/ The Salt Lake Tribune (2)] – Johnson is only name-dropped once (twice if you include the image caption)

::: The points from my above analysis remain valid: There is no significant coverage of Johnson himself and the sources are inappropriately used for original research/synthesis. You added more sources, including unreliable ones, but the few that are reliable (SL Tribune and VentureBeat) only mention Johnson once or twice in connection to Beyond Games/Smart Bomb/WildWorks. They do not contain any coverage about him. The absolute number of name drops is irrelevant if no coverage about Johnson comes with them. IceWelder [✉] 16:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

:::* {{Ping|IceWelder}} In the gaming landscape, the sources cited are credible, including Mobygames which was added after your review. Regardless, the point of notability here is not fame and the number of press references (though he did warrant interviews and photographs in newspaper and magazine publications). In fact, being famous or popular is “secondary” to notability according to Wikipedia policy. Rather, Johnson’s article is premised on his body of work and the relevance of his games, which include award-winners and well-know franchises. As pointed out in my entry above, notability for creative professionals derives from the attention received in the form of articles and reviews for their works, not necessarily for articles specifically focused on the professionals themselves. Please see WP:NBIO. Johnson’s gameography certainly satisfies this requirement and the content and references in his Wiki article (including the Retro Gamer and Dreamcast pieces you discussed) show that he was the vital force behind these games and worthy of attention. Please see the linked Wiki articles on the games for more information. Sandpiper259 (talk) 10:15, 27 April 2021

::::: MobyGames is not "credible", it is a database maintained by users. Many of the sources used are not credible, as detailed above. Please see WP:VG/RS for examples of known reliable sources. You are correct that 'fame' is secondary to notability, meaning that notability weighs higher. Based on the sources provided, Johnson lacks notability as there is barely any coverage about him. The interviews with him are always based around Beyond Games – who else would you interview for this but the founder/owner?

::::: The games are not attributed to Johnson as an individual, rather to Beyond Games/WildWorks as a company. Winning awards from one or two publications is barely enough to justify an article for the product that won it (although these are usually notable by other means). One person behind such games does not inherit that notability (please also read WP:INHERIT as an explainer). You are now referring to WP:CREATIVE (presumably #3), but the reliable sources in the article fail to show that Johnson is known as a driving force for most (if any) of the games listed. The gameography is simply the combination of those of Beyond/WildWorks and Cobalt. Some of these games even credit him in a strictly business role. IceWelder [✉] 18:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

:::::: {{Ping|IceWelder}} First, Wiki policy specifically says that notability for creative professionals can result from co-creations, which by definition exists with media forms like movies and video games. That said, three of Johnson’s most noted works in the article - Battle Wheels, Animal Jam, and Crunchling Adventure - have citations that explicitly reference Johnson as the creator or programmer - a user manual, a current CEO interview, and a newspaper article. As for your dismissive reference to the awards, please check the linked game articles for more details as they’re no longer cited specifically in this article. You’ll find that the awards, like the Google Play Award in 2017, are important ones to children’s games. Moreover, an Innovation Award bestowed by the Consumer Electronics Show, arguably the most influential electronics show in the world, is important. As for the interviews, you said it best: Johnson was the founder/owner. So, I’m not sure how you can say that he could fill this role and be the one best suited for interviews but not the one who was “a driving force for most (if any) of the games listed.” This seems inconsistent and unsupportable, especially when discussing a young programmer at his startup and when the interviews themselves delve into his personal background in gaming and programming. Sandpiper259 (talk) 12:30, 27 April 2021

::::::: WP:CREATIVE #3:

::::::: {{talkquote|The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject ... of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.}} (emphasis added)

::::::: This 'major role' needs to be covered in independent, reliable, secondary sources. Interviews and game manuals are not independent, especially when the interview source is not reliable. The MMORPG source still does not refer to Johnson as the game director for Animal Jam (just as 'studio director' a/k/a CEO). Additionally, Johnson still needs to pass WP:GNG, which requires:

::::::: {{talkquote|"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, ...}} (emphasis added)

::::::: This is not the case. I remain with my above analysis; if the content improperly sourced or only relating to the company was removed, little content would actually remain. Since we're somewhat going in circles, I would rather wait for second opinions from other experienced users than discuss this further. IceWelder [✉] 20:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

::::::: {{Ping|IceWelder}} Agreed regarding further community input. I believe that Johnson’s “major role” has been established given his position as CEO/Founder/Programmer in these companies and game titles. Likewise, his work has been covered by multiple independent articles and reviews. As for Studio Director, this is a title separate from CEO and akin to a film director - the pivotal creative and strategic force behind executing a production. Finally, the referenced articles/interviews are several and contain information about both Johnson’s games and background (some of which was removed pursuant to this discussion thread). I appreciate your input and hope it has resulted in a stronger article. Thank you for your comments. Sandpiper259 (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2021

• Delete. IceWelder's analysis is spot on. We're lacking significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources (?) specific to Johnson's career and influence. Interviews from otherwise unreliable sources have no bearing on notability discussions. I considered a redirect as an alternative to deletion but I don't think either one of the two linked companies is a better target than the other, especially since they have nothing to say about his role and have weak sourcing on their own. (not watching, please {{tl|ping}}) czar 07:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Delete - Seeing some name drops in articles that talk about the companies he works with, but there is a lack of significant coverage of him. -Indy beetle (talk) 07:34, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

::* Czar and Indy beetle: Your comments repeat those of Icewelder with dubious challenges to the source materials. Moreover, they do not address the topic of notability for creative professionals. As such, please see my comments above. Also, please consider reviewing the reference materials more thoroughly as I believe their contents and credibility have been mischaracterized. Sandpiper259 (talk) 08:00 04 May 2021 — Preceding undated comment added 15:12, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

::** I reviewed and upheld IceWelder's analysis. It's hard to be more explicit than that. All notability guidelines are subordinate to (and shortcuts for) the general notability guideline (GNG). Since this is the best we can do with the sourcing, I don't see how we can support an actual article on this topic without relying on original research and weak sources. czar 01:56, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

:::* Sandpiper259: please note that arguing against every vote that disagrees with you might be considered WP:BLUDGEON, especially since you are the article's main author. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 01:27, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.