Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kyle Watson

:{{la|Kyle Watson}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [http://toolserver.org/~snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kyle_Watson Stats])

:({{Find sources|Kyle Watson}})

Fighter fails WP:NMMA. Please note that exhibition fights dont count toward notability. JadeSnake (talk) 13:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

::Strikeout added because JadeSnake was a confirmed sockpuppet of an already banned user.Willdawg111 (talk) 20:39, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

::Comment Please read WP:TUF for compelling reasons why TUF fights should count, and if they don't, why they enhance a fighters ability to meet WP:GNG, which Kyle Watson does PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 00:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

:Comment TUF fights count toward WP:NMMA. If you read the guidelines, all that is required is for them to be Professional fights and put on by a top tier organization which the UFC is. There are a couple people who keep incorrectly saying TUF fights don't count but they appear to have a lack of understanding about how sanctioned, professional MMA fights are done.

• Keep - You're supposed to notify the page creator. Passes WP:MMANOT and WP:NMMA through having two UFC fights at live events and multiple in The Ultimate Fighter. Is a semi-finalist from that show, so his semi-final bout is recorded by the UFC and considered to be a professional, NON-exhibition bout, so he has his three bouts. Is the jiu-jitsu trainer at the HIT Squad, one of the most notable training facilities in the sport. Passes WP:ATHLETE due to his multiple jiu-jitsu world tournament championships. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - not notable. Fails WP:NMMA, WP:ATHLETE, and WP:BLP--Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 23:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete - Subject fails WP:NMMA. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete He fails WP:NMMA. Article can be recreated if he gets another top tier fight. Jakejr (talk) 05:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep Passes WP:GNG because of his [http://www.outsidethering.net/?p=253 Pan Am] + [http://www.thejournal-news.net/sports/more_sports/watson-goes-double-bronze-at-pan-no-gi-championships/article_125d3c76-18d7-11e2-8349-0019bb2963f4.html world championship] participation. His bodogfight, has multiple UFC fights, fought on the ultimate fighter,What more does this guy need? PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

::Actually if you read the article it's not Pan-Am it's just Pan (pan what?). Also, there's no indication he competed at the IBJJF world championships--your link merely says he's going to. He's not listed at the IBJJF website for the event (which only lists the top 4) nor is it clear that just competing at that event is sufficient to show notability. Based on WP:MANOTE I'd say it doesn't. Jakejr (talk) 02:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

:::[http://www.ibjjf.org/pan.htm Pan championship]; You are welcome. Next, [http://www.ibjjf.org/results/2010pan.htm Go here], Hit control+f, and type in Kyle Watson, and see that he was the champion of his division. Are people really that unaware of how to use a search engine properly? --PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC) [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/mma/12/06/ultimate.fighter/index.html Here is a Sports Illustrated article involving Kyle Watson you should read]. It offers more than a trivial mention of him as well. I really hate to pile on, but I just can't help myself. [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/mma/post/2011/04/garza-makdessi-open-ufc-129-with-highlight-reel-finishes/1 USA today] thought one of his fights was important enough to cover. Here is another [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/mma/post/2010/10/nam-phan-on-tuf-12-episode-4-team-koscheck-/1 USA Today article with non trivial coverage of Watson]PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment [http://www.ibjjf.org/results/2007nogi.htm also medaled in the IBJJF no-gi world championship in 2007]. This is the highest level of this sport PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

::Competing as an underbelt is not the highest level. The other sources you mention are fight results (routine coverage) or a list of the various TUF fighters and what might happen to them. None shows significant coverage of him. Jakejr (talk) 21:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Pfft, and underbelt? I've never heard this term before, perhaps a little Original Research on your part? To me, the highest level means the tournament itself not which belt you are at. He medaled in the highest level of his class PortlandOregon97217 ([[User

talk:PortlandOregon97217|talk]]) 23:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

::::If you know so little about martial arts that you've never heard the term underbelt (aka "under belt"--all ranks below black belt) then I wonder how you can be so positive about what constitutes notable martial arts events. Nothing but the black belt division could even be considered as fighting at the highest level. Jakejr (talk) 03:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

:::::Unless you can produce a source about the underbelt, at this point, your editing is being disruptive. I understand you think that the Brown Belt is automatically excluded for notability reasons. But you have presented no reason for me to agree with you, because he won his division at the highest level of competition and this is verifiable. That in conjunction with his other refs and he is a solid keep PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 03:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

::::::It's not disruptive to point out that he did not compete at the highest level. The site you referenced shows he was competing as a purple belt and that is not the highest level. Martial arts tournaments are divided by belt levels so that beginners don't compete with experts. The highest level is black belt, anything else is not the highest level. Anyone familiar with martial arts competition would agree with that. This isn't the first time you've accused me of something--at an earlier AFD you questioned the competence of those disagreeing with you and now I'm being disruptive by stating pertinent facts. Jakejr (talk) 04:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

::::::::i was only objecting to your underbelt term which sounded like rhetoric. I only disagree with you on your interpretation of a guideline. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 04:23, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 00:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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• Comment - For pete's sakes *I* have two trophies from "national" martial arts events sponsored by "international" organizations! Do I get an article? Not everyone who wins a little medal or trophy in any event in the world gets to have a Wikipedia article. Some of these articles (such as this one) consist of nothing but obscure awards in obscure events. There are next to no sources or citations, and have no place in Wikipedia. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 02:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
• Rebuttal- SO I take it your awards are in a database? But were you on television for an extended period of time? and if so, is it verifiable with WP:SOURCES? Watson was, and he does. Why arent you taking all aspects of his notability into consideration? He is generally notable as per WP:GNG

::Please review the latest reliable independent WP:SOURCES I added to the article. It really should put him over the top PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 03:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Passes martial artist notabilityWP:MANOTE with his repeated medaling in significant events. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 02:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Delete Doesn't meet WP:NMMA. He doesn't meet WP:MANOTE since he wasn't competing at the top level of his sport. Many martial arts discussions have agreed that only adult black belt titles can show notability. Mdtemp (talk) 17:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Delete He's close, but he doesn't meet WP:NMMA. He hasn't even competed at the highest level as a grappler, so he doesn't meet WP:MANOTE, and the sources are routine sports coverage or TUF episode recaps so he doesn't pass WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 05:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - Per WP:MANOTE, one criteria for notability is "Repeated medalist in another significant event;- (e.g. competitors from multiple nations or significant national tournament, not an internal school champion)." Has multiple medals in variuos international BJJ competitions, including the Pan Ams, No-Gi World Championships and International Masters/Seniors Tournament in Brazil. Fails WP:NMMA IMO and needs more sourcing for his grappling career though, but doesn't need his MMA career to pass. Luchuslu (talk) 20:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

::Also, I don't see any mention on WP:MANOTE that says a fighter has to compete at the "highest level," just that they have to medal in significant tournaments. Just because it's been part of discussions on the WP:WPMA talk page doesn't mean it's part of the essay. Luchuslu (talk) 20:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

:::First, it's not just been part of the WPMA talk page, it's been part of dozens of martial arts AFD discussions. Second, there's two aspects of "highest level" to be considered when you're talking martial arts. The first, and one that's always been supported, is that non black belt competitions don't show notability. A green belt beating other green belts does not show notability. The second aspect is the one mentioned at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Levan Razmadze. Levan was a black belt competing against other black belts and you made the case for notability based on his successes at competitions that were not the highest level (i.e., Olympics or world championships), but had some significance as international competitions. I tend to think the "highest level" must meet both aspects, but I have no doubt that white or green or purple belts do not achieve notability by beating other beginners or intermediate students. WP:NSPORTS is clear that the criteria for sports is competing at the highest level, so why would martial arts notability be obtained by beating beginners? Papaursa (talk) 21:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

::::The second part of WP:NSPORTS says "meet any of the qualifications in one of the sports specific sections." If they have come to a consensus on talk pages and AfDs that only black belts are notable, they should clarify the point in their essay. But I'll change my vote to Weak Keep because common sense does hint to brown/purple belt competitions being less notable. Luchuslu (talk) 02:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't see any consensus, do you? Bearian (talk) 21:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

::Actually, I do. The people voting keep are doing it because they believe finishing 3rd in a purple belt division (the next to lowest division at that tournament) shows notability. The question then becomes, do you believe martial arts competitors have to compete at the highest level to be notable? Papaursa (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.