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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of 8-bit Atari game music

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete All: No bias to recreation, but arguments for deletion are valid, and currently unfixed.. —— Eagle101 Need help? 04:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

=[[List of 8-bit Atari game music]] et al.=

{{ns:0|G}}

:{{la|List of 8-bit Atari game music}} – (View AfD)(View log)

None of these lists give any sources to back up the claim that the music in the games listed is notable. As far as I know makes them both original research and point of view material, and probably count as indiscriminate information as well.

The other pages are:

:{{la|List of Amiga game music}}

::Second nomination, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Amiga game music for previous nomination, which ended with no consensus.

:{{la|List of C64 game music}}

:{{la|List of Dreamcast game music}}

:{{la|List of Mega Drive game music}}

:{{la|List of MSX game music}}

:{{la|List of Nintendo Entertainment System game music}}

:{{la|List of PC game music}}

::A previous page with this name was deleted, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of PC game music

:{{la|List of PlayStation game music}}

:{{la|List of PlayStation 2 game music}}

:{{la|List of Super NES game music}}

FredOrAlive 15:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete All Unverified, unmaintainable, POV OR listcruft. -- IslaySolomon | talk 15:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all. the titles aren't even what the articles claim to be. just a list of games and sometimes people who composed mnusic for them. --Tainter 15:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Even though I've contributed to a couple of the articles, I never quite understood why there were here. Article purposes are somewhat vague, and without references, there's no notibility ground. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete All - I actually made the PSX one, but I agree that they're all unverifiable fancruft. Delete and remove the links from Computer and video game music. Moogy (talk) 16:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. It may be possible in future to establish some criteria for "notable" music for different games consoles and maintain a small list; on the other hand, it may not. At present, they have numerous problems per above. Trebor 17:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep You've obviously all already made up your minds so I'm not even going to try arguing, but dammit those were good and useful articles. Sometimes I hate Deletionists! --Hibernian 17:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Care to give a reason besides 'useful'? I don't find them all that useful. And good they certainly are not. I hate deletionists too, but with these articles, it's really pretty justified. Most of the /truly/ notible soundtracks are already listen somewhere in the game music article, and unlike say, List of important operas or similar lists, there's just not enough OUT THERE to prove anything is notable over another. Maybe if someone could find a few notible articles, and use them as reference for ONE list, that would work. But as they stand now, they either have to be all inclusive (that is, replicating the list of games per system and adding composer info), or deleted. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • You may want to see WP:ILIKEIT. I'm all for listening to arguments, but as of yet you haven't constructed one. Trebor 18:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Well I don't see how articles that violate two of Wikipedia's core content policies (WP:V, WP:OR) could be described as "good". The only people these articles are useful to are people who want to know which video games a small group of Wikipedians think sound good. -- IslaySolomon | talk 18:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete Although I wouldn't have nominated this type of article, I agree with above points that it is difficult to provide an arguement as to why they should stay. Maybe a single article with just tracks from all consoles over time which have been most notable, but as for the current articles, Wikipedia isn't the right place for them. Bungle44 17:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep So these articles need a little bit of work, okay. When I was a baby I needed improvement, too. Should my parents have deleted me? Are these articles actually hurting anyone? Or can they just be tagged with whatever original research or sources tags in the meantime until more information can be dredged up? So, yeah.--Lairor 02:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Most of these articles were created in 2005, so are over a year old, and a couple have had "sources needed" tags for over 6 months, so I'm not sure if they're really "babies" in Wikipedia terms. I wouldn't object to an article on "notable game music" (stuff like won awards / multiple articles from major publications or websites that praise it / soundtrack release sold a zillion copies), but I personally think such an article would be basicly be a rewrite from scratch, rather than trying to retrofit some sort of notability criteria onto what's basically a "list of game music that random Wikipedia editors think is good". FredOrAlive 23:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 19:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 19:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. SkierRMH 19:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC) -- SkierRMH 19:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Despite being a game music fanatic, I'd been considering nominating all of these for a while now. The problem begins with the lists' statement that "the following games were noted for their music". Noted by who? Where are the sources saying that all of these have been "noted"? What are the criteria for a game/series having been "noted", besides someone deciding to insert it into the list?
    These lists all currently fail WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:NOT, and I don't think they can be fixed. WarpstarRider 02:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Wikipedia isn't a music database. We've deleted quite a few game music list recently; these are no different. --Scottie theNerd 06:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all as being irredeemably POV-laden and unsourcable. --Dweller 12:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, unreferenced and POV issues While I don't have a problem with articles about video game music in general, this particular lists are entirely unreferenced and suffer from the POV problem of deciding whether or not a game is "known" for its music. So the specific lists in this particular afd should be deleted. (Note: I don't have an issue with maintainence here, or with game music not being a notable topic. My problem is specifically with the references and POV.) Dugwiki 23:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Why you've allowed to create and develop these articles then? Where were you been? What happened?--Simon the Dragon 00:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Some of the talk pages have already had comments pertaining to POV issues. I did suggest that a citation be provided for every entry, but this was not followed, and this AfD is not surprising. Shawnc 08:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all - hardly complete, not _really_ notable (I could understand discussing the engineering of certain effects that were new to the time, such as the ET voice clip on the Atari 800 cartridge or the voices on the 8-bit Kennedy Approach game WITHIN those articles, but not a list). Not verifiable at all either in most cases. --JohnDBuell 09:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep, games have become famous on the basis of their music and the music indepently won awards for it. The quality of the music played is often mentioned in reviews of games, frequently new music is composed just for the game. An article shouldn't be deleted because you have something against music of games. Mathmo Talk 14:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • That isn't the issue here. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking VGM; it has to do with the fact that these articles are unverifiable original research listcruft. I'm sure most, if not all, of the people voting delete on this AfD enjoy VGM. Moogy (talk) 14:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Did I mention anywhere that I like music in video games? Or even that I like music full stop! Actually I'm generally not too found of it, so if anything my bias would actually be towards deletion if it was based on how I feel about the music. Don't try to guess and project onto me your views without basis. Mathmo Talk 14:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The Point is, as it stands now, the articles are basically all POV pointlessness. An article that's well sourced with a list of notable game music would be a totally different story (again, check out List of important operas for how it can be done), but as it stands, it's probably hard to find enough sources for such an article, unfortunetly. Maybe in ten years there will be. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 14:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I get a lot of your points, however you have put up a massive big pile of them to be deleted at once. If they had been done one at a time then I too would have been voting delete for a fair few of them, while the others (very few admittedly) that could be worthwhile I'd vote for keep. But as it stands now I can't vote for delete simply because most of them are crap, this is a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water! Mathmo Talk 10:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Uh, every one of these lists is the same thing. A statement saying "these games have notable soundtracks" and then a list of games. Not one of them have any sources that establish what is meant by a notable soundtrack, or back up the claims that the games listed have notable soundtracks. They all have to go. WarpstarRider 10:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not the one who put them up for deletion. I just support it (which if one checked my contribs, is usually the opposite of what I say when I add to a AFD.) And yeah, they all are pretty much the same. Look. It IS true that a lot of game have notable music. But as is often said, WP:V trumps over truth. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - actually I have soundtrack albums for several games over in my CD rack. I have nothing against game music articles being on Wikipeida (and it's not like I've nominated the main Computer and video game music article), it's just these lists just don't work. There may be a list of notable game music to be made, but these are just lists of games with music random wikipedia editors like. FredOrAlive 15:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. The current criteria- "quality" as determined by random passerby - is clearly unsustainable. However, it's vaguely possible that new criteria could be set that is not POV, for instance "Video game music composed by noted composers" or the like- Harry Gregson-Williams (Metal Gear Solid 2) is a well-established movie composer, Yuki Kajiura (Xenosaga II & III) has done lots of animes, Jeremy Soule while mostly doing video game music has received a ton of acclaim and orchestrations, etc. It'd need vigilant watching and cleanly set out guidelines so that the POV part doesn't transfer to "which composers are notable," but that's an easier question. For starters, something like "the composer should have a bluelink and at least two pages of content in their article that aren't simply lists of works" would seem passable, though people who know the music industry better are certainly free to suggest something better. SnowFire 18:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment That still doesn't cut it. For starters, the size of the Wikipedia article has absolutely zero direct relation to notibility. Furthur more, there's plenty of games out there with well-noted music by otherwise non-notable composers (can you name who wrote Katamari Damacy off the top of your head? How about Super Metroid?). Whatever, I gave the better argument above, and there's basically NOTHING in any of these articles that's more than a list, so making a new general article instead of trying to keep an clean these up is a lot better choice, either way. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Psst, Super Metroid might be a bad example because Kenji Yamamoto isn't actually that obscure. Voretus 20:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, yes. I'm proposing a refocusing of the list, since "quality of score" seems like a POV magnet. And I agree with what you say about Wikipedia articles not being the be-all and end-all of how notable a person is, but they are a start, and they're easy to check. I've seen a similar requirement used for listing artists from a topic with tons of (graphical) artists- only list artists with non-trivial WP pages at the least, since if they don't even have that, they probably don't matter. Anyway, it's not a huge deal, but there could be non-trivial history in these lists that could provide a start to someone trying to make a proper article, so if deletion is decided, at least redirects to "video game music" would ensure that the history could still be checked and used. SnowFire 21:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure if the lists can really be "refocussed" myself, as I've said before, you'd basically be trying to retrofit a set of criteria onto the existing lists. IMO it would be better to create a set of criteria then researching the soundtracks that fitted them. FredOrAlive 23:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - possibly, for some of them I could go through and find reviews that state the music, but a) I'm too lazy and b) this is pointless; if it had good music, the article should say it in 'reception'. otherwise you end up with huge funnel lists. Dåvid Fuchs (talk / contribs) 02:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all - subjective inclusion criteria. Quarma 01:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.