Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Taylor Swift live performances

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While Ms. Taylor Swift is one of the biggest names in contemporary music, this list comes off as WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:FANCRUFT. Apart from the massive stadium tours with millions of dollars grossed, I do not see how trivial matters, like performances on awards shows and television, are necessary. This is not a fanwiki to begin with, and this level of detail is hard to justify "notability". A "List of Taylor Swift concert tours" may be more appropriate, but that is another issue-- HĐ (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. HĐ (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. HĐ (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. HĐ (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. This is not something applicable to be a Wikipedia article. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 02:36, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep. I strongly disagree this is fancruft if the performances are covered in reliable sources (sometimes HQ reliable). I'll also be happy to take HĐ's suggestion of making a less-detailed "List of Taylor Swift concert tours" and merge this name into that article, but I find this article just as fancrufty as Taylor Swift albums discography, Taylor Swift singles discography, and List of songs recorded by Taylor Swift... which means not at all. I would do something like The Beach Boys live performances, List of Queen live performances, Pink Floyd live performances, and Nine Inch Nails live performances (but of course without the issues those pages currently have) where it's a list of summaries of her tours with articles on those tours listing all the live performances, with some sections summarizing what her tours are generally like. Shouldn't List of the Beatles' live performances also be deleted as well? 👨x🐱 (talk) 02:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep Perfectly valid list article. All of her listed tours have their own articles. Listing them all in one place to easily show valid information such as how many millions went to see her during each tour, makes for a valid list. Anything on the list not notable enough to be there, can be removed. Need to discuss a set standard for what these sorts of lists should include. :Category:Lists of concerts and performances Dream Focus 03:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep I couldn't say if its the type of page allowed to have, but as far as notability there are plenty of sources to support the page content. Lesliechin1 (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep The article has more than enough sources and contains several links to articles about notable events. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 10:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. The live performances are irrelevant since artists like Taylor Swift and others of the same status have more opportunities to perform at award shows and other TV appearances, this is pure fancruft. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep As the creator of the page, I strongly feel it should be kept, not only for the many hours of work I've put into it, but also because the article has more than enough sources and contains several links to articles about notable events. Moreover, there are many similar articles, for example: List of Rihanna live performances, List of Beyoncé live performances, List of Justin Bieber live performances. On top of that, some are Featured lists, for example: List of Lady Gaga live performances and List of Kim Hee-chul performances. Johnnyboytoy (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• I think this is another instance where WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST arguments are absolutely valid. Any opinion on the live performance article examples I provided above? 👨x🐱 (talk) 14:27, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• I believe those articles are poorly written, edited and referenced, so that's a different point from the discussion. I do not feel an article titled "List of Taylor Swift concert tours" encompasses all the items presented on the "List of Taylor Swift live performances", such as award shows and TV shows presentatios, because, as the name says, it refers only to her "Concert Tours". But I do agree that if one article is to be deleted/merged, so all the others, including the Featured lists ones, must be. I also think that this should have been discussed earlier on, as currently there are many articles listing live performances. Johnnyboytoy (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• {{u|Johnnyboytoy}}, "other stuff" is still "other stuff"... I could reasonably say that they should all be deleted per this discussion. Instead of arguing "keep" because "this sort of list exists elsewhere", it is more helpful to argue for/against why each and every live performance should be included. And I am not seeing any reason why, given that live performances are WP:INDISCRIMINATE (yeah, Ms. Swift has performed at dozens of awards ceremonies... so what?). Being well sourced does not mean it is inherently notable. A "List of Taylor Swift concert tours" is more helpful, since it may include specific details about attendance and revenue records--HĐ (talk) 01:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
• {{u|HĐ}}, As I mentioned above, I'm not against it being deleted, as long as ALL the other pages are deleted as well, including the ones certified as Featured lists. Johnnyboytoy (talk) 01:45, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Riddhidev BISWAS (talk) 18:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Since the frequently brought up reason for deleting live performance articles seem to be Fancruft and concerns of indiscriminate info, I want to discuss this.

:I had a discussion (coincidentally) with HĐ on a featured article nomination for a Meghan Trainor song about the inclusion of sales figure of a week being indiscriminate. I asked why chart peaks and certifications weren't considered the same, and the response was "they simply summarize the most vital details i.e. chart positions, certifications that an album or a song received." So if being "vital" is the criteria for the inclusion of information that, if not vital, would be fancruft, then let me ask. What's so vital about having a list like List of songs recorded by Taylor Swift? A majority of the tracks aren't notable on their own to have articles, and have even less coverage than the WP:ONEVENT reliable sources the live performances listed here have. Looks like something that would only belong on the Taylor Swift wiki, IMO. What is so vital about lists of publication accolades in List of awards and nominations received by Taylor Swift, since only those publications have published the lists themselves, which are not covered by any other source?

:MarioSoulTruthFan argued, "The live performances are irrelevant since artists like Taylor Swift and others of the same status have more opportunities to perform at award shows and other TV appearances." Yeah, in the same way a list of artist's Grammies and MTV Awards are irrelevant since Swift and others as popular as her have elite opportunities for winning and getting nominated for Grammies and MTV awards, but where are the deletion discussions for those? I mean, seriously, many of these freeking award shows are just patting-on-the-back-of-each-other for the elite class.

:The point is, there are so many things to consider when determining fancruft-ness when almost ALL of the performances on are morning shows, awards shows, football stadiums, radio shows, and events as imposed onto the world's conscious as Time 100 Gala, the CMA Awards, the Grammy awards, Billboard Music Awards, The Ellen DeGeneres Show, Saturday Night Live, NFL games, the Tiny Desk Concert show, and I'm only scratching the surface. If this was just a list of live performances at local venues and areas barely anyone to no-one has ever heard of (even if the artist was notable), I would vote to explode it in a million pieces. But that is not the case here.

: Furthermore, HĐ, how do you know fans of Swift will be the only ones interested in this article? Have you done surveys of readers on what topics they would be interested in? Are you a mind reader? I strongly doubt it. I also think only Swift fans (or maaaaaaaybe chart enthusiasts) would be the only ones interested in finding all the chart positions and certifications listed in the discography lists of Swift, or be interested in every song Swift has recorded, but I don't know. I can't know, cause there's 7 billion on this planet and a lot of them are too shy to reveal who they are and what they think.

: I don't say any of this to question the motives of the nominator, since that would be bad faith. I'm saying all of this because the use of the descriptor fancruft is extremely prone to fall on WP:CRYSTALBALL-ism. It is stated on WP:INDISCRIMINATE that info with only a small fanbase, even if there are HQ reliable sources used, aren't allowed, and on the essay on fancruft, it states in that these situations, "the general focus of the discussion should be What Wikipedia is not (importance conveyed by sources) rather than WP:Notability (coverage by sources)."

: So here's the conclusion based on this: All live performance articles are deletable for being nothing more than a database (WP:NOTDATABASE) of live performances on events extremely difficult to get the opportunity to perform on, in the same way discography and awards lists are deletable for being databases on charts just as hard to enter, certifications and sales just as hard to obtain, and high-tier awards just as hard to win, be nominated for, or even be on a shortlist for. All of this is true because we are not a database of events and stats. There are probably other places than a deletion discussion for one article to discuss a topic as widespread as artists' lists, but that's the point I'm making for this discussion for now. If you're going to delete it, delete all those other non-encyclopedic pages editors have accepted for so long. 👨x🐱 (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment My vote still remains.

::That's true, artists like Swift and others are more inclined to win VMA's, AMA's and whatsoever...more than the grunge rock band of yesterday and you know why? Popularity. However, and I'm not defending any kind of award shows, they are just a popularity contest and a case of "if you scratch my back I scratch yours", like you said. If you are going down that path then the emmys, golden globes and many others should be deleted and believe me you don't want to go down that route. Moreover, charts have neer been easier to entry, you don't even need a record deal to do so look at Macklemore, Lil Nas X, 69 and many others, they had hits before being signed by labels and even if that wasn't enough, just look at those "genre" charts divided in airplay, sales, streams and whatsoever, just making it easier. Sales are "dying", some claim they are already "dead" and certifications are easier to get, the next certification of a song is just a stream away. If they were't easy you wouldn't have albums that almost every song had been certified at least gold.

::Regarding this kind of "live performances" pages should all be NUKED, even if they are FA's which in the first place raised a lot of eyebrows (Yes I saw that discussion) and some people deemed as unecessary and still passed somehow, withouth those concerns properly address. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

:::Like I said, there are areas on Wikipedia to debate the importance or fancruftness of aspects of the music industry other than Afd (like the talk of Wikiproject Music perhaps), but to keep it short as someone who researches the industry and charts a lot more and as someone who would like all of society to make correctly-informed decisions and votes, charts (and I'm talking official charts, not your average retailer or bootleg website chart) have never been HARDER, and I mean BATTLETOADS HARD, to enter: your understanding of the modern charts and certifications has a heavy amount of survivorship bias; there are like 60,000,000 artists doing what Lil Nas X and Macklemore, and you only notice like 60 of them make it. The increased market saturation, the result of the ease of access of making and posting music, only adds more significance to those seemingly-instant and only-took-a-click certifications and chart positions. Even genre, vinyl, and heatseeker-only genres are a bitch to make it in because of the amount of songs that get released and posted in each genre.

:::Also, let's just get this out of the way. Only the big stars in rap and pop (especially rap) have been able to do what Canadian Youtube critic Mark Grondin of Spectrum Pulse terms "album bombs", the instances of "albums that almost every song had been certified at least gold" MarioSoulTruthFan referred to. You don't see that with even the most well-known independent acts.

:::I'd also make a recommendation for a full discuss with the community elsewhere (like I said, on Wikiproject Music perhaps) to discuss whether to have live performance articles, and to Draftify all the live performance articles because WP:Consensus can change and we may change our minds. If I'm to inductively reason, I think most music article editors (even experienced ones) think discography articles are less fancrufty than live performance lists simply because they encounter and work on those way more and encounter live performance articles less. But there I go being a crystal ball on people's mind, again. 👨x🐱 (talk) 23:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

::::Last time I will talk about this, because like you pointed out this is a topic for wikiproject music and we just have to simply vote Keep or Delete here. To begin with, I never talked about "bootleg charts", so I'm not sure where you are coming from with that. You mean they have never been easier, correct? Your argument is quite flawed since it can go both aways. Back then you only make it with having a record deal, nowadays you can reach to the top spot of a chart with no record deal, anyone can upload their music to streaming and digital services. Not everyone will make it, it is impossible but artist like the ones I referenced sticked out like a sore thumb and to some extend they made it, due to timing, music, memes and other stuff.

::::However, what was I commentating was regarding artists like Swift and so many others that almost every song in the album has been certified gold. Not the average joe who just released a song. I'm sure that person is not a reliable source, but whatever. Something else you should bare in mind is that you are going for too much right now; its the live performances, the awards and the discographies. Take it easy and focus your energies on one thing at a time. You have good points to start that discussion over there. Not because they work harder on the discographies, simply because there is a wikiproject on that, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

:::::I want to talk about this elsewhere, so I'll also comment on this for the last time in this discussion. I brought up the charts to make the comparisons to live performances, awards, and discographies. I didn't take any tangent, trust me. 👨x🐱 (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

• Keep for now. I think we do need to have a wider discussion as to whether live performance, award, discography, and list of songs articles should be deleted or not, and I'm not comfortable deleting some but not all of a certain type (e.g. the List of live performances series) of page, as that would get confusing, quick. Like {{u|Johnnyboytoy}} said, I'm not against the page being deleted, but all the other "List of live performances" pages need to be deleted as well. That is why I suggest having a wider discussion, maybe on WT:MUSIC, WT:SONGS or WT:ALBUMS, on this topic before turning to deletion. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 15:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep. I do not see how a list of concert tours that grossed almost $1 billion is "fancruft". If the other parts are, then there should be a consensus on the talk page to remove them—not delete the whole page. More context could be provided with a paragraph above each of the tables perhaps. I would also dispute the "fancruft" notion; I don't regularly listen to Swift but this list allows me to understand trends in her career, what songs received more promotion, which countries were focused on, etc. Heartfox (talk) 04:41, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep - Reliably sourced list which I found useful. Neutral wording is used and objective facts are stated, so it didn't strike me as fancruft. Unless precedent is established to delete all such lists, this one shouldn't be.--NØ 12:47, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
• Keep at least for now. It would be better to hold a larger discussion about lists of live performances as a whole so a general consensus can be reached about all of them. I do not necessarily view this as either fancruft or an indiscriminate list, but I can understand the concern about it. I just think this is better suited for a larger discussion about these lists as a group rather than doing it individually. Aoba47 (talk) 00:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.