Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of best-selling Latin albums

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:{{la|List of best-selling Latin albums}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=List of best-selling Latin albums}})

I am also nominating the following related page:

:{{la|List of best-selling Latin music artists}}

I am proposing that these article be deleted for several reasons:

1) As mentioned in the maintenance tag, there are questionable sources being used. More importantly, there's the lack of sources from certification authorities which brings up my next point...

2) The lack of online certification databases in Latin America. The only countries with certification databases are Argentina, Brazil, and Mexico and even then they are incomplete. Mexico's certification database only goes back to 1999 while Argentina's certification database stops at 2011. At one point, Uruguay had an online database, but only really briefly (from 1999-2002). Without a comprehensive database from Latin America, there's not much to go on sales from Spanish-speaking countries. The only realistic way of getting sales from Latin America is by IFPI Latin America, which is far as I can tell, do not provide it.

3) Then there's the question what qualifies as a "Latin album" on this list. There isn't an international organization that defines makes an album "Latin" for album sales. Contrast that with the list that I worked on List of best-selling Latin albums in the United States in which Billboard and the RIAA define Latin music anything sung predominately sung in Spanish since both organizations track sales of Latin albums in the US. There's the Latin Recording Academy which is an international organization that defines Latin music as music sung in Spanish and Portuguese, but they do not deal with album sales. Which leads to another problem I have this article...

4) It also happens to lists albums by artists who happened to be of Hispanic/Latine heritage. This goes in tangent with my third point, but without a reliable source on whether these should also qualify as Latin albums, it completely goes against original research. Otherwise, are we also going to list albums by artists who also happen to be of Hispanic/Latine heritage like Christina Aguilera, Cardi B, and Melanie Martinez? Granted, Aguilera did release one Latin album (Mi Reflejo), but that's just one album and it would be odd to include her other albums since she happens of Ecuadorian on her father's side.

These points are also why I support deleting list of best-selling Latin music artists as well since that list doesn't source what makes an artist "Latin". Unless IFPI Latin America suddenly lists the best-selling albums, I can't support this article's existence like with the Latin albums in the US since the article only lists one source for album and none from certifying bodies. Erick (talk) 14:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:24, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:24, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:24, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment You make really good points across this. However, I have to point out that most of the sources are reliable. For the second point, I'm on board with you, but there are other sources like the ones in the articles, you don't need online certifications databases if you have Billboard, Antena 3, MTV ad various Spanish outlets claiming the sales. I think the biggest issue here is point 4. There are artists like Enrique Iglesias and Shakira that have released albums in both languages and even in "spanglish". The examples you pointed out are not the best, Cardi B and Melanie Martinez, despite their heritage don't sing in Spanish besides a few words in a couple of songs. I guess the point made for Christina Aguilera is better, but I would be looking for artists like the ones I previously mentioned. Nevertheless, if we include these artists the sales of those "English" albums are also going to be included. Unless those artists are removed, but if they are removed then it would be an inaccurate list. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Draftify both lists. Per WP:LSC, lists need to have a selection criteria which is unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. These lists do not have such criteria, so I propose to take them offline, discuss the criteria and after consensus is achieved, put them back online. At the same time, address the lack or unreliability of sources, specifically the "music genre" column should be removed.--Muhandes (talk) 09:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• {{u|Muhandes}}, {{u|MarioSoulTruthFan}} You both bring up good points. In the event the article gets draftify, I some ideas on how to incorporate a complete inclusiveness of Latin albums by noting how sources differ on their definition of Latin music by either language or genre (which I can back up with a source). The ideal list would Latin albums that include both by language (Spanish or Portuguese) and/or genre (Latin or one of its subgenres). I have sources that can back up Portuguese-language albums to be included in addition to Spanish-language albums. For the genre, the sources should explicitly say that the album is Latin or any of its subgenres like Latin pop, tropical urban, or Regional Mexican, but not "Latin-influenced". This would include not only English-language albums that explicitly stated to be "Latin" by music journalists, but also instrumental Latin albums as well. Basically the list will have sources that several organizations use language while music journalists use genres so that Latin albums can be included in either criteria. I also want to base it on List of best-selling albums (with a lower threshold of course) and using the certified copies part (the RIAA's Latin certifications would come really handy in this). What do you two think of this proposal? Erick (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
• {{u|Muhandes}}, {{u|MarioSoulTruthFan}}, I have made an example of the list on my sandbox combining both this list and List of best-selling albums. I tried to be as inclusive as possible on the criteria for inclusion on the prose. Tagging {{u|Brankestein}}, {{u|AJona1992}}, {{u|FanDePopLatino}}, {{u|Jaespinoza}}, {{u|آرمین هویدایی}}, {{u|Mauri96}}, {{u|88marcus}}, {{u|Apoxyomenus}}, {{u|Richard3120}} as they usually involved in Latin music articles for their thoughts. Feel free to edit my sandbox! Erick (talk) 05:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

::{{Ping|Magiciandude}} Looks fine. BTW, Ibero-America also applies as a term for music, culture or politics with both Spanish and Portuguese sphere if "Latin" word is such a problematic one. Perhaps those bilingual (English/Spanish) releases such as Sale el Sol or Jon Secada need to be lumped in another section within the list. I also agreed with you about issues with sources because many of them are just questionable. There is even a source from a forum (Foro Univisión) and some or all releases have inflated sales as well. Using certifications column will be helpful but we could also have two figures such as List of best-selling music artists. And finally (isn't a big deal for me), we can have another section with releases recorded in Spanish/Portuguese by non-"Latinos" such as many releases that fit the figure for inclusion such as many by Laura Pausini, Mi Reflejo by Christina Aguilera etc because among other things, they (those releases) have also received the tag "Latin music". Regards, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 13:45, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

::* {{u|Apoxyomenus}}, Thanks for your input. Since the article is called "best-selling Latin albums", not "best-selling albums by Latin artists", I don't think a separate section is needed for nationality for non Latine artists and it's fine to include "Mi Reflejo". In fact, I am against including a nationality section at all. I was just going to mention Laura Pausini as well because a lot of Italian pop artists in the 90s and 00s released Spanish-language versions of their hits which became a success in Spanish-speaking markets. That's why I think only the Spanish/Portuguese versions of those albums should count. I mention "predominately" in the sandbox, because music industry tends to use "51% or more" in Spanish/Portuguese as a threshold, meaning the whole album doesn't have to be entirely sung in either language. In the case of Sale el Sol, it is mostly sung in Spanish which is why it ranked on Billboard's Latin Albums chart, whereas Jon Secada's self-titled mostly sung in English and is why it didn't rank on the same chart. EDIT: Changed "predominantly" to"mostly", what do you think? Also the list would also include instrumental Latin albums as well like a Latin jazz album.. Erick (talk) 13:56, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

:::*{{u|Magiciandude}} I like what you did with your sandbox. Don't include artists' columns as that gets back to the same problem I pointed out. Once you get all the sources you ned. You can replaced it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

:::** {{u|MarioSoulTruthFan}}, Thanks! For the artists part, my proposal is that the album, not the artist, should be considered "Latin" either by language (Spanish or Portuguese per sources) or genre-wise (considered to be "Latin" by music journalists for non Spanish/Portuguese albums). That way, an album can be listed for either reason. I want to be as inclusive as I can for the list within reason. Erick (talk) 16:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

::::*Erick I agree that combining both articles together will make it better instead of just deleting them both. I also think that using your sandbox will make it easier for us and give enough time to find reliable sources to properly make edits. I will contribute to the article when I have time. Thanks! FanDePopLatino (talk) 14:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

• Draftify as proposed by Muhandes. Azuredivay (talk) 02:08, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
• Draftify per Muhandes. TheRollBoss001 (talk) 09:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.