Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of film director and actor collaborations

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Doesn't pass notability WP:LISTN as a stand-alone list. The article has a complete lack of sources, almost no inclusion criteria and is mostly just an indiscriminate collection. Any future attempt at anything similar to this should surely start from new. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:Changing to keep as I find the new form to be sufficient. How do I withdraw this nomination? Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

::{{ul|Onetwothreeip}}, unfortunately, per WP:WDAFD, you can only withdraw it if no one else has supported the deletion proposal. Unless the outstanding delete !votes get struck out by the editors, we'll have to see this through. My assumption is that it will not close as "delete", only "no consensus" as the worst outcome. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:02, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 01:10, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• Undecided, but leaning toward delete. I can name a few notable ones off the top of my head - Alfred Hitchcock and Cary Grant, Preston Sturges and a group of actors he regularly used - but is that enough to overcome the lack of definition of what a "collaboration" is? Probably not. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:*Keep per WP:HEY. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Keep The information can be found in the articles linked to. There is no need to have a lot of pointless references confirming this person worked in that film. This seems like a notable topic. Search for the names of the director and the actor and the word collaborations and you can find reliable sources giving significant coverage of this such as [https://www.vulture.com/2015/08/samuel-jackson-hateful-eight.html] Dream Focus 07:20, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

::I would have nothing against someone trying to start this article from new after it's deleted. The current article is simply not appropriate for an encyclopaedia, which completely exaggerates collaborations. Would you agree? Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:24, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:::Trying to destroy something that has been worked on for years by many different editors, because you hope a new article more to your liking will be created in its place, is ridiculous. Use the talk page to discuss how you think the article should be changed, and work from there. Dream Focus 07:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

::::I have tried to seek discussion on the talk page, but nothing has been forthcoming. I have brought the article to the attention of other editors as well, to seek their advice. I agree that what you describe would be ridiculous, but it is completely not what I hope to happen or am doing. This isn't an article that has really been worked on, it has simply been added to with no care about notability or inclusion criteria.

::::I have also tried to find reliable sources for the collaborations but there are none for the vast majority. This is clear when searching the supposed collaborations alphabetically, and that's after I've removed entries in the "A" section where there were only three films between the actor and director. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Dream Focus 07:18, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:::::Just because a director works with same actor in several films, does that make it a collaboration or is it something shallower? It could just be that there are a finite number of directors and established actors and they happen to get assigned to the same project again. You work long enough, and reteamings are bound to happen. Or maybe a director likes an actor's performance in their first film together and decides to use them again later. That in itself isn't noteworthy. You'd have to establish something stronger (and sourced), like the director insisting on using a specific actor over and over again. Are Robert Altman and René Auberjonois really indelibly linked together? I think not. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• Delete. I'm inclined to agree with the nom here, the list is indiscriminate and completely unsourced. There has to be a better way of covering genuinely notable director/actor collaborations, Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio being one such example. PC78 (talk) 09:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment This is a subject best fit for an article, where some of the more notable examples can be mentioned.★Trekker (talk) 13:25, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:LISTN and WP:Original research. Obviously some director-actor relationships are notable (Scorsese/DeNiro, Woody Allen/Mia Farrow & Diane Keaton) and it is not unusual to discuss such collaborations (see Martin_Scorsese#Frequent_collaborators and Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro) but I see little purpose in this index. It is completely unsourced and while some colloborations are notable these are best served by the categeory at :Category:Filmmaking collaborations, where a suitably sourced and notable collaboration can be simply categorised as such. Even if the list was pared down to just include those articles in the category (and thus just including notable collaborations) I am not sure it would satisfy LISTN even then. Collaborations are generally discussed in the context of the careers of those people, not in the context of collaborations. Betty Logan (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment See :Category:Filmmaking collaborations for a variety of categories and lists of this kind. Andrew D. (talk) 16:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Much work to source - and a bit overwhelming. However WP:NEXIST. Lightburst (talk) 18:01, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• Keep but absolutely nuke the unsourced content. This is a notable list topic that has multiple reliable sources:

:*[https://www.indiewire.com/2013/07/10-great-modern-day-actordirector-collaborations-95947/ 10 Great Modern Day Actor/Director Collaborations] by IndieWire

:*[http://www.vh1.com/news/248286/most-influential-actor-director-movie-combos/ It Takes Two: The 15 Most Influential Actor-Director Movie Combos of All Time] by VH1

:*[https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/these-are-the-freshest-actordirector-collaborations-working-today/ The Freshest Actor-Director Collaborations Working Today, Ranked by Tomatometer] by Rotten Tomatoes

:*[https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/7_greatest_actor_director 7 greatest actor-director collaborations in sci-fi movies and TV] by Syfy

:*[https://ew.com/movies/hollywood-actor-director-partnerships/ 15 potent Hollywood partnerships] by Entertainment Weekly

:I get that the article as it is is garbage. I could simply go ahead and wipe this content and start from scratch with the above references. Not sure if I should do that now or after this gets deleted. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:07, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Using the above references and others that I found, I've overhauled the article from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_film_director_and_actor_collaborations&oldid=914535912 this] to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_film_director_and_actor_collaborations&oldid=914807912 this]. I apologize that the names are not sorted and that some actors are grouped under the director and that some are not, and that the "Films" column does not have titles at this time. If editors can see the potential in this kind of list, being strict about sourcing and inclusion criteria, then we can hammer out the formatting and organizational details. Pinging those who have commented here already: {{ul|Onetwothreeip}}, {{ul|Clarityfiend}}, {{ul|Dream Focus}}, {{ul|PC78}}, {{ul|*Treker}}, {{ul|Betty Logan}}, {{ul|Andrew Davidson}}, {{ul|Lightburst}}. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:55, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• A grand improvement I'd say.★Trekker (talk) 13:57, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• :I put the table in alpha order but did not add any sort keys yet. A few directors were listed in seperate rows while others had multiple actors on one row. For the directors in multiple rows I merged their listing but I didn't break out the actors into their own separate rows as I wasn't sure what the intent or plan was. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Keep in its current, greatly improved form. As long as the list is maintained to only include sourced examples, and doesn't become the indiscriminate mess it was before, it is a valid list article, as demonstrated by the now-included sources. Kudos to Erik for actually taking the time to put that work in! Rorshacma (talk) 15:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Keep Now Erik has worked on it, trimmed the cruft and sourced it. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Keep per improvements. Will try to withdraw later today. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:17, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
• It needs more work but it's certainly an improvement, so I guess we should give this new version the benefit of the doubt. PC78 (talk) 06:56, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
• Keep per improvements by Erik and WP:SKCRIT withdrawn nomination. Lightburst (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.