Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rulers of Kasongo Luunda (Yaka)

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I believe lists themselves can not be copyrighted as those are historical facts. With this problem solved, the consensus seems to be keep (and improve) Tone 15:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

=[[List of rulers of Kasongo Luunda (Yaka)]]=

:{{la|List of rulers of Kasongo Luunda (Yaka)}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rulers of Kasongo Luunda (Yaka)}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{findsources|List of rulers of Kasongo Luunda (Yaka)}})

No encyclopedic content. No sources or references to speak of anyway. Almost all pages linked are redlinks. Fails to establish notability. Outback the koala (talk) 03:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

:*This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

~~Delete~~ This level of detail, and nobody can tell us where they got it from? That practice was winked at back in 2004, but it doesn't go anymore. Cite to a source and then we'll talk. Until then, "Paandzu Pfumukulu" doesn't fall under the "everybody knows that" category. Changing to speedy-- now I see why it wasn't sourced. Mandsford (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment The table is taken directly from [http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Congo-Kinshasa_native.html this page]. I'm leaning delete but I'm also aware of systemic bias. I don't know enough about African politics to be able to assess the notability of such a list. I went ahead and contacted WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo to see if anyone experienced in the topic area could sort this out. Them From Space 00:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

::If thats the case, then this should be speedy deleted per G12. Outback the koala (talk) 05:40, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Keep. Finding a source does not make something a speedy deletion candidate. That makes it an article. Have the deletionists really gotten this bad? Rmhermen (talk) 19:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Speedy delete G12 One thing that deletionists and inclusionists can agree on is that we don't believe in ripoffs or ignoring copyright. The little "c" inside a circle in "©2000 Ben Cahoon" means that Ben Cahoon, who did the research for his site http://www.worldstatesmen.org/, asserts a copyright over a decade's work, which he supports through PayPal. If I were Ben Cahoon, it's safe to say that I would be pissed at somebody not only copying this verbatim, but not acknowledging him as the source. A person could write an article about Kasongo Luunda and provide a link to Cahoon's site, as an alternative to "cut, paste, don't say where I took this from"; or one could e-mail the man at bcahoon@worldstatesmen.org -- either to ask if he has any objections, or to tell him that someone has pasted his work onto a free encyclopedia. Mandsford (talk) 02:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
:Tagged as such. Them From Space 03:11, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
::I won't withdraw my nomination just yet, in case speedy delete is turned down. We'll have to go ahead with the delete here in that case. Outback the koala (talk) 03:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
:Lists are not copyrightable as they do not contain any original thought but rather are collections of simple statistical information. Not speediable under G12. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

:Ok, thanks for the correction. Them From Space 07:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

:::: What correction would that be? I don't see anything in User:Nihonjoe's profile to indicate that he or she is in the practice of law, let alone copyright law. Proof has been offered to suggest that this has been plagiarized from someone else, and I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise. Mandsford (talk) 14:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and asked for an administrator to intervene in this discussion and in the other one [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_rulers_of_Ruund_(Luunda)]. Mandsford (talk) 15:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Delete as copyvio. (Don't want to put the G12 tag back although I believe it qualifies) It seems the admins are not in agreement about what a copyvio is and what is not. List_of_rulers_of_Kuba was speedied on Friday. This and some others have been declined. Presenting research results in list form does not prevent them from being protected by copyright law - this is not a list anyone could assemble without much trouble. --Pgallert (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

::: It's sad that people are not in agreement about plagiarism. Comparing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Kasongo_Luunda_(Yaka) this] to [http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Congo-Kinshasa_native.html this], it's disgustingly obvious what happened. Excusing it by saying "it was only a list" is kind of like excusing a shoplifter on grounds of "it was only a pack of cigarettes, and he cheerfully paid for it after he was caught". Mandsford (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

:Comment: In my opinion, the list was originally copied from Cahiers d'études africaines, Vol. 13, No. 50 (published in 1973). The article [http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/cea_0008-0055_1973_num_13_50_2714?_Prescripts_Search_tabs1=standard& Patriarchal Structures and Factional Politics. Toward an Understanding of the Dualist Society] by Jean-Claude Willame deals with the political situation in the region in that time. The local name for the ruler apparently wasn't Kyambvu, as our article claims, but Kiamfu. The table "Succession of the Kiamfu's" (p. 333) is unfortunately locked, however, a fragment is available at [http://books.google.cz/books?id=Wc4DAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Mulumbi+Mbisi%22&dq=%22Mulumbi+Mbisi%22&cd=1 Google Books]. I suspect that the list is repeatedly copied on the internet with increasing number of errors. The article in Cahiers contains sufficient information needed for expansion of our article. It is really complicated to judge the copyright violation by Wikipedia, in this case. However, the content is repairable with the help of reliable source and the information could surely be useful for this project. --Vejvančický (talk) 18:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment to closing Admin Please state in your closing explicitly whether G12 applies in this situation. This would be greatly appreciated. Outback the koala (talk) 08:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep and expand/improve. This is not a copyvio per Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service which held that telephone directories are not subject to copyright. I believe that this list is a similar case, just names and dates in order. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:04, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: no opinion on the merits, but Eluchil404 is correct that the Feist case applies here; lists of facts are not subject to copyright, unless the facts are presented in an original manner, which does not seem to be the case here. Sandstein 08:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

::: It'll be a moot point soon. Presentation of the facts in an original manner doesn't appear to have been that important when the article was created, but Wikipedia has grown up a lot since 2004. Now that Vejvancicky has located a source, a new page can be created, and this one can be forgotten. I'm wondering how many other similar copy-pastes are floating around out there. Mandsford (talk) 17:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:* Comment The comparison with the Feist case limps a little bit, I'm sure you can see why. But in all our copyright policies I could not find any notice on Wikipedia advocating the US courts' views on copyright, or any court's view, for that matter. Surely WP is bound by guilty verdicts as the servers are located in the US, but nothing prevents us from employing a stricter view. --Pgallert (talk) 10:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

~~Delete and Recreate~~ when Cahiers d'études africaines, Vol. 13, No. 50 (published in 1973). The article [http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/cea_0008-0055_1973_num_13_50_2714?_Prescripts_Search_tabs1=standard& Patriarchal Structures and Factional Politics. Toward an Understanding of the Dualist Society] by Jean-Claude Willame fully sourced. GREAT WORK Vejvančický - thank you so much for finding what appears to be the original source. We should delete this distortion now, with no prejudice to recreation at a later date. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:::At this point we have got to be the longest running AfD I have ever seen by far. Your no prejudice to recreating the page kinda sidesteps the issues above. Can we take from from this original piece of work. What is copyrighted and what is not; and what is valid, and so on and so forth.... Outback the koala (talk) 20:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

::::I've added a short explanation of the subject, sufficient for an informative and referenced stub. The article should be redirected to Kasongo Lunda or Kasongo-Lunda (the area is listed in the article Territories of the Democratic Republic of the Congo). --Vejvančický (talk) 07:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Keep and Move to Kasongo-Lunda. Good work again Vejvančický. Outback the Koala, I've seen a number of very very long AfDs - check out Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/7th Indian Infantry Division. What I was attempting to propose was a solution. Now Vejvancicky's bettered it. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

::::::I meant time wise. Outback the koala (talk) 04:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Keep The area ruled was at least equivalent ot a province, and a list of heads of government of such an area is always appropriate. Every bit as valid an article, though not nearly as complete, as List of Governors of Pennsylvania--a Featured Article. DGG ( talk ) 21:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Delete - It is unimportant and non-notable at this time, it may have been notable before. Also, on the page there are question marks all over the page. If it was real and have enough references they (the creators) wouldn't have to put question marks. Whenaxis (talk) 11:53, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Keep and possibly rename to Kasongo Lunda. While I absolutely agree with DGG above, the article currently is more than just a list of rulers, and Kasongo Lunda should have an article. --bonadea contributions talk 13:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.