Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of stateless societies

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This article contains two lists, both of which are problematic, and the list format renders these problems unsolvable. Neither list criteria is defined in the article.

The first is "Historical societies". Most are revolts within states. While the ambiguities of what constitutes a society of persons that is independent of whatever state had de jure control over that territory could be dealt with in prose, the list format prevents that sort of discussion. The flag assigned to most of these societies is a clear error (most stateless societies don't have a single flag), and the start and end date for several is far too precise. Most of the "ideologies" listed say nothing about how these societies were governed.

The second list is "indigenous societies". This is somewhere between List of tribes and list of ethnic groups. This again has too many ambiguities, and forming a list creates more questions than answers. The listed "societies" are actually ethnic groups who in most cases exist as multiple, separate societies. Additionally, all of these ethnic groups today live within the jurisdiction of states and the people of these tribes are citizens of these states.

Overall, forming these lists states as a fact that "these entities are stateless societies", whereas the truth is far more ambiguous and would require a significant amount of prose for each entry, plus inclusion criteria that would be very hard to define. I cannot see a page under "List of stateless societies" being useful to the encyclopaedia. LukeSurl ^{t c} 15:44, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:Hi, thanks for bringing this up. This page was created mostly as a split from a number of items included in the list of anarchist communities that didn't fit there. I understand the current version of this article is far from complete and many items may also be inaccurate. I do think the that there is a place on Wikipedia for a list of stateless societies, but it would need to be drastically expanded on with reliably sourced information. I don't think this page should be deleted entirely, but would be happy to move it to the drafts section until it is of a higher quality. Regards.--Grnrchst (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:40, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

::Comment Given that there are only a couple of hundred states and many thousands of ethic, religious and cultural groups, most groups in the world currently would fall under this definition, even before we go back to the Essenes and the Taborites. There is no Amazigh state now but there certainly were Amazigh states in the past. The Icelandic commonwealth is described as a “direct democracy” but that is a kind of state. There were also Nubian states. I really can’t understand what this list is supposed to be about. Mccapra (talk) 18:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

• Keep The concept of a stateless society seems reasonably well-established – see [https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100529204 Oxford Reference], for example. A list of examples is therefore reasonable. If there is some dispute about a particular entry then this can be resolved by apppropriate sourcing. For instance, there are multiple sources which cover such communities in West Africa – see The Oxford Handbook of Nigerian Politics, for example. The topic therefore passes WP:LISTN and the rest is a matter of ordinary editing. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
• Keep This is an important historical topic and one not so easy to cover. The article does need more work but as a historian I can understand the challenges presented by the complexities and ambiguities of defining and listing stateless societies. Draftify if you must, but please don't delete. This article is just 4 days old, surely we can give it more time to grow, improve and let other editors contribute too. Cordially, History DMZ ^{(HQ) † (wire)} 23:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am not sure if current title is the appropriate title for this type of the article or list. But since the article is just 4 days old we can return to this issue later. Shankargb (talk) 05:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• Keep I was initially skeptical of this article but having read User:History DMZ's comment I have to agree. W1tchkr4ft 00 (talk) 04:03, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Libertarianism-related deletion discussions. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - a draftify might be what this needs. The article needs to have clear boundaries on what is and isn't listed, as both being stateless and being a distinct society are often amorphous concepts. I am uncomfortable with the "list of indigenous societies" section, as this is effectively an arbitrary list of (mostly African) ethnic groups. People of literally every ethnic group existed in stateless societies before states dominated the world. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 14:55, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Keep. The stateless societies are well known. Nothing prevents from creating the list to supplement main page on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 01:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
• Keep The concept of stateless societies is known within anthropology and history. For a range of ideas of how the theme is dealt with in the literature see https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22stateless+societies%22 . The concept of stateless societies is a very important one in fields like social anthropology and West African history. Anthropologists for the last couple of decades have grouped modes of social organization in a continuum with stateless societies at one pole, and state organizations at another. The concept is quite known in related fields. The article can be improved with more editors' work of course, but I believe the article covers a notable and important subject. KJS ml343x (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 11:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

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:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.