Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lorenzo Doryon

:{{la|Lorenzo Doryon}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lorenzo_Doryon Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Lorenzo Doryon}})

Non-notable actor lacking non-trivial references and in-depth, significant support. Support is primarily single line listings. Fails WP:NACTOR, WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT. reddogsix (talk) 14:53, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• KEEP This article has previously PASSED both proposed deletion, as well as speedy deletion by administrator per User:Ritchie333. Administrators determined that Lorenzo Doryon PASSED WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT, and was indeed notable. Doryon does not gain notability from being an actor, but rather as a model and recording artist. Per WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT, Doryon meets all notability requirements. He has had significant roles as outlined in the article, and covered by major national media outlets also sourced in the article. These have been documented by extremely prestigious media outlets such as the LA Times, for which he is in the main cover photo. Moreover, Doryon also meets the second requirement of having "a large fan base." He currently has over 420,000 engaged followers on instagram. Per Wikipedia:Notability (people), "People are likely to be notable if they meet ANY of the following standards." Thus, Doryon qualifies on his "large fan base" alone. All references to being an actor have been removed and the info box was changed from an actor to a model info box. The above argument is invalid as Doryon has PASSED WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT, agreed upon by administrator User:Ritchie333's decline of A7 deletion. Doryon has been determined by the wikipedia guidelines and community to indeed be notable. Additionally, there have been many good faith contributions by the Wikipedia community to improve this article. This article is clearly not a candidate for AfD. It is a well developed article that deserves a place on Wikipedia. It is my recommendation that this AfD is either withdrawn or the article is marked as KEEP. Thanks again to all involved! MusicSource17 (talk) 08:18, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

:*Comment - Let's be clear and accurate the article did not "pass" either a PROD or a CSD. You removed the PROD and the CSD was removed because there was a claim of notability - a mention in the LA Times. An admin did not determined the article subject PASSED WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT, and or was notable.

::As indicated to you previously, the subject does not meet the criteria in WP:NMODEL or WP:ENT. He is WP:MILL model/actor. The coverage you cite are very limited, trivial single line mentions or are from his website or IMDB - there are no in-depth, significant articles. Being on the 1st page of the LA Times is usually included with a major article about the subject, but the picture was not even credited as being the Wikipedia article subject. The article was this single line mention (stage credit) in an article buried in the paper. BTW, there is no cover page for a newspaper.

::I am sorry, but the base you mention is hardly "a large fan base." There are internet "stars" with millions of followers that do not warrant an article. The community has not determined his is notability, you have and as previously stated, an admin did not determined the article subject PASSED WP:NMODEL, and WP:ENT, and or was notable. reddogsix (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• STRONG KEEP Agree that administrator User:Ritchie333's decline of WP:A7 speedy deletion clearly indicated that this article passed speedy deletion attempt. This also indicated notability based on WP:NMODEL and WP:ENT. The criteria clearly states that as User:MusicSource17 noted, per Wikipedia:Notability (people), "People are likely to be notable if they meet ANY of the following standards." The subject of this article seems to actually qualify under several of the available criteria, let alone just one criteria standard.

:Just an aside, but I actually recognize this kid from hanging from the ceilings every time I walk into my local Target lol. Upon further research he seems to be quite a successful model and stage performer. I also had the chance to listen to some of the tracks on his webpage and they are definitely impressive. Not sure, but with a following larger than the size of a small country, I would definitely say the subject of this article qualifies as having not only a large, but a VERY large fan base/ cult following, a criteria he certainly passes under WP:NMODEL. The subject passes the Wikipedia accepted definition of large which is what me must go on, not the above commenter's opinion on what subject does or does not deserve an article. As such, it is my determination that the article passes notability per our guidelines and must be kept.

:Wikipedia grows with new articles and we should all try as a community to expand on and improve articles, rather than try to shut them down and delete them before they get on their feet. I noticed the previous commenter has quite a history of deleting articles prematurely. Upon reviewing the history, this seems to be his third attempt to remove this article, and he has done very little to offer any suggestions to improve the article to the editors, or contribute to the article itself. KEEP Zaczac333 (talk) 11:50, 16 March 2017 (UTC) — Zaczac333 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• Delete. Does not seem to have significant coverage in independent reliable sources. The citations in the article are unreliable, affiliated with the subject, or trivial mentions. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:19, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
• Delete - does not meet the specific notability criteria nor GNG the general ones. That the speedy deletion request was declined does not have any bearing on this discussion. --bonadea contributions talk 06:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

:*Comment Hi bonadea! Thank you for contributing to this discussion. I strongly request you reconsider your belief for the following reasons: Per WP:NOTE, "A topic is presumed to merit an article if: It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline." The specific guideline the subject passed for this article under WP:NMODEL is "Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following." Doryon has a engaged fan base of over 420,000 fans on instagram. This most certainly surpasses this requirement, and thus, the subject-specific guidelines. Doryon also passes additional requirements under the subject-specific guidelines, however, the guidelines clearly state that "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards." I also believe the decline of A7 deletion by an administrator further proves that this subject is notable. For these reasons, I unequivocally believe that this article passes necessary criteria and should remain as a KEEP. I humbly ask that you reconsider. Please feel free to discuss more, and I thank you for your consideration. MusicSource17 (talk) 07:04, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

:::MusicSource17, no, declining an A7 deletion request does not imply that the subject is notable, only that there is a claim of significance, which is a weaker claim than notability. The speedy deletion criteria are narrow and strict, and it is in fact fairly common for administators to decline speedy deletion requests that don't meet those strict requirements with the advice "Take it to AfD" - and in fact [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lorenzo_Doryon&diff=769408964&oldid=769391252 that happened here as well], which means that the admin did not make any claim of notability. As for the large fan base or "cult" following, there is no secondary source supporting this. By itself, having many Instagram/Twitter/Facebook followers is not equivalent of "a large fan base or a significant "cult" following" unless the number of followers has been discussed in depth in independent sources. The other points of WP:ENT are also not met, and since all sources are primary, with the exception of a couple of trivial mentions, WP:GNG isn't either.

:::Please do not make more than one bolded "keep" comment, btw - it's a formality, but one that many people like to see kept, and it may cause unnecessary friction when contributors don't stick to that. See this for more information. Cheers, --bonadea contributions talk 07:23, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

:::Hi bonadea, thanks for responding so quickly! Per WP:PRIMARY, "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." With his instagram account acting as the primary source, it is very clear that he has over 420,000 fans. This is not an interpretation, but rather a verifiable fact which is very easy to understand without any further specialized knowledge. This is a primary independent source, that clearly shows his large/cult fan base, thus passing WP:ENT. His social following is also discussed on his imdb through a verified biography that mentions his social following is "massive." The facts that you mentioned as being primary, are indeed allowed per WP:PRIMARY, because they are straightforward, descriptive statements based on the primary source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MusicSource17 (talk • contribs) 08:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

• Delete due to lacking good sources - most of the sources are his; the Playbill has a single photo of him. We tend to delete male model articles. Bearian (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

::Hello Bearian, If your concern is the number of photos of him from that production, I encourage you to look at this link from Getty Images that clearly show Lorenzo as the focal point and one of the stars of the production. GETTY IMAGES. Doryon was called "Outstanding" by TheaterMania, and "Impressive" by StageSceneLA, both linked in the article. With regard to being "good" sources, the wikipedia community has in the past recognized Variety Magazine, TheaterMania, StageSceneLA, the LA Times, and Playbill as all quality sources. Additionally, all bios on IMDB are independently verified by the IMDB team, so the bio written there is also a great source that can be used. I very kindly ask that you reconsider your opinion and allow other editors the chance to further develop and improve this article. I would greatly appreciate a change in your stance to KEEP. Thank you!! MusicSource17 (talk) 01:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

:::Sorry. You have not convinced me to change my mind. Bearian (talk) 00:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

:::P.S. How to change my mind: show that actually he has tens of thousands of fans and that there is significant coverage of that fact. Please show the "claims, evidence, analysis" (CEA). Bearian (talk) 01:54, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

::::Hi Bearian! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to further explain. The subject of this article does not only have tens of thousands of fans, but rather hundreds of thousands of fans. I encourage you to look [http://www.instagram.com/lorenzodoryon HERE], and see his current fan base listed at over 423,000(423k) fans and counting. I further encourage you to scroll down a bit and take a look at the sheer engagement he receives on the photos over a week old (that had had time to accuse engagement), as well as the comments and support he receives from his fans. Per WP:NMODEL, Doryon meets specific notability requirements. Doryon clearly passes the criteria of having "a large fan base or a significant "cult" following." Doryon's verified biography on [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2592537/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm IMDB] also list his social media following as "massive." Per Wikipedia:Notability (people), "People are likely to be notable if they meet ANY of the following standards." Thus, Doryon qualifies on his "large fan base" alone. I am not entirely sure what a CEA is, but if you could link to it or provide it on my talk page, I would love to provide that additional information for you. Thank you again for taking the time to reconsider you stance. I greatly appreciate the opportunity and hope I have provided enough additional information. Again, please let me know if there is anything else I can provide for you. Thanks! MusicSource17 (talk) 10:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

:::::As you may read above, I made the specific, concrete, and observable point of spelling out what CEA stands for, and you failed to read what I wrote, so I shall be sequential. Please provide observable CLAIMS; please provide EVIDENCE of notability beyond mere popularity or fame; please provide ANALYSIS beyond just linking to NMODEL. The biggest problem with both IMdB and Instagram is that the information at those websites can be manipulated by bots, publicity hounds, agents, and other entities that aren't really fans; even if we take their numbers at face value, they only speak to fame, not notability, which is a different concept. So how do we define "large fan base" based on Instagram? Let us look at past discussions for guidance. River Viiperi was deleted last year despite having [https://www.instagram.com/riverviiperi/ 183,000 more followers on Instagram than Doryon]. Kevin Peake was deleted recently although [https://www.instagram.com/throughkevinseye/ he has tens of thousands of followers on Instagram]. I can't find any male model who we've kept after a recent discussion. A person has to be royalty (or the equivalent), or have done something really significant in real life, not just be famous for being famous to get their own Wikipedia article. Bearian (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

:::::So, long story short, C/claims: the subject really does not have that big of a fan base (as measured by Instagram followers), E/evidence: there's no evidence he's actually done anything significant that we'd call notable, and A/analysis: we've recently deleted articles of much more famous male models. River's "fan base" is much bigger than Lorenzo's -- and they still erased his article. Bearian (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.