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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mantas Lėkis

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This discussion has failed to establish whether A Lyga is fully pro. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

=[[Mantas Lėkis]]=

:{{la|Mantas Lėkis}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Mantas Lėkis}})

Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested on the grounds that FK Tauras Tauragė is a fully pro league. I assume the word "in" is missing here. In any case, if the A Lyga is fully pro, I have not seen any sourcing thereof. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:Just because a league is the highest league in a country, does not necessarily mean it is fully professional. Likewise, just because one club in a league is professional, does not necessarily mean that the rest are pro also. Have yet to find any concrete sourcing, one way or the other, on the pro status of the A Lyga, and since notability requires verifiable evidence, Mr. Lekis is non-notable unless it can be established that the A Lyga is fully pro. As for the "world cup competitions", I assume you mean the UEFA Champions League and Europa League, these competitions are not fully pro either, at least in the qualifying rounds for which Lithuanian teams qualify. UEFA permits a fair degree of amateurism in these early rounds precisely because some country's top leagues are not fully professional. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

  • Not sure if [http://www.balticleague.com/archive/dec2008/302319.html this] helps or hinders Stu.W UK (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:It changes nothing. The fact that there are some professional clubs in the A Lyga has already been established, and this source says nothing about how many pro clubs there were before the tax change, and how many there are now. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

::Woah, ok relax. For a start it refers to Lithuanian football in general as being professional; it doesn't say that some clubs are and some aren't. Now I wouldn't call it the greatest source in the world, admittedly, but seeing as I can find absolutely nothing that says top division Lithuanian football is semi-pro or amateur I'd say that I'd lean towards 'professional'. [http://www.voicesinfootball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15 this] is the only other thing I can find, which says the A Lyga is the top division of professional football. Everything else is a wikipedia rip-off or sounds too similar to be credible. Stu.W UK (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

  • As a separate point, A-Lyga isn't mentioned on WP:FPL at all at the moment. Would it not be better to get some consensus on whether or not a league is professional before nominating articles for deletion? Stu.W UK (talk) 19:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:::First of all, let me appologise if you took offense to my previous comment. It was not intended in any way as an insult or accusation. The sources provided certainly pose some interesting questions, but there are not conclusive enough for my liking. You could undoubtedly find sources about "professional" football in countries like Estonia or Montenegro, where the top few teams of the highest division are fully pro, but the clubs at the bottom of the table are not. As I stated above, notability requires verifiable evidence, and given the lack of clear evidence as to whether or not the A Lyga is fully pro, WP:NSPORT becomes insufficient for establishing notability. More importantly this player quite clearly fails WP:GNG which is prerequisite to NSPORT anyways. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

GNG is an alternative, NOT a prerequisite! Read WP:N - 'A topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets the general notability guideline below and is not excluded by WP:NOT. A topic is also presumed notable if it meets the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right.' As for the verifiability of the A-Lyga's professionalism, I agree it is cloudy, but I would personally err on the side of WP:IAR. The professionalism rule should weed out the truly insignificant top leagues - the Welsh, Sammarinese or Maltese for instance - but shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the borderline cases with. Stu.W UK (talk) 03:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

:It seems that there is a contradiction in guidelines. NSPORT reads: In addition, standalone articles are required to meet the General Notability Guideline. Furthermore, its not clear whether or not this article meets NSPORT making GNG the logical fallback. While the IAR reasoning certainly has some merit, but do we really need another one line stub without much room for expansion. The way I see it the GNG requirement was included to avoid cases like this one. Sir Sputnik (talk) 03:32, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

::Yeah NSPORT is confusingly written. On the same page it says 'Subjects that do not meet the sport-specific criteria outlined in this guideline may still be notable if they meet the General Notability Guideline or another subject specific notability guideline', which again suggests that meeting either GNG or NSPORT is sufficient. As for this article, I would personally say why not have a one line stub but then that's inclusion vs deletion for you. There will almost certainly be room for expansion in the future - it is only his first season after all. Stu.W UK (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

:::To which I simply say, WP:CRYSTAL. Sir Sputnik (talk) 04:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

::::I didn't say he should be included because of what may happen in the future, just that stubs are likely to fill out over the course of a player's career. If he never played again, I'd say the stub would be better than nothing. Stu.W UK (talk) 05:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

  • Keep There are various special provisions for sportspeople, and in general I agree to use them as limiting beyond the GNG, but this needs to be applied with some common sense. Even if the national team of a country is not fully professional, it is the national team. Perhaps that should be added to the guidelines, but whether it is written there or not, we can't explicitly provide for all contingencies. It's reasonable to accept the national team as providing notability for its players. (subject to the usual role, that they must play in regular competition, not merely be on the roster). DGG ( talk ) 02:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

:Why is the pro status of the national team relevant? Mr. Lekis has never played for Lithuania, and except for the fact that the team is listed in the infobox, there is no indication he has even been called up. Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment - What does this "2010- Lithuania 0 (0)" mean? Oh, and people who want to keep this article should add atleast some kind of information with refs and his old teams. Then I could say "Keep" Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

:Based on the article listed in the references, I think the Lithuanian national team is listed in the infobox, because he was considered for a call up to the national team, but then not called because he was injured. In any case, he hasn't played for Lithuania which is what is necessary for notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment. Just to clarify. Lithuania doesn't have a single national team, they have leagues. The top tier league is A lyga, consisting of 11 teams just now, including Lekis' team, FK Tauras. The league winner and some of the runner-up teams compete in international play. So Lekis' team had some international play in 2010, Europa League, against Llanelli A.F.C. (Wales), and as you can see from this BBC article [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/league_of_wales/8785964.stm], Lekis played in that series. Wish I knew how to fix the infobox. Novickas (talk) 21:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

:Forgive me bluntness, but the claim that the Lithuania national football team does not exist is simply false. The national team, and league structure there work more or less the same way they do in any other European country, meaning the infobox correctly displays the relevant information, although I suspect it is incomplete. His appearances in international club competitions have all been in qualifying, which do not grant notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

::You seem to see the WP A lyga article as profoundly wrong, since it states that it's LT's highest level of football and that it consists of a number of teams rather than describing one particular outfit as "Lithuania's national team". If so, please post that at its page. By extension the BBC article is wrong too, since it specifically describes a multi-game match between FK Tauras and another team in Wales as part of the Europa League competition, rather than as the "Lithuanian national team" vs. another country. Novickas (talk) 23:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

:::The A Lyga contains no one club side, I agree, nor did I ever say so. The national team I mentioned in my early post operates completely separately of the A Lyga, may call upon any player of Lithuanian nationality whether they play in Lithuania or not, and plays against other countries' national teams most notably in qualifying matches for the FIFA World Cup and the UEFA European Football Championship. Playing for this team, would make Mr. Lekis notable under WP:NSPORT. However, as his article clearly indicates, he has not played for this team. The BBC article you referred to earlier, talks about an international club match which has nothing to do with the the Lithuanian national team, and I apologise if I gave the mistaken impression that it did. As far as the infobox is concerned, the match referred to in that article is a non-league fixture and should therefore not be displayed in the infobox. As I stated above, the match does not grant notability either. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

::::You're right about the national team - my US-centrism is showing; find it hard to think along those lines. (Not helped by how few games they play). I would still think that club play in Europa League matches is enough for notability, but if a wider consensus about that already exists or emerges, pls let me know. Novickas (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

  • Keep the top league in Lithuania should qualify for notability. MLA (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Why should the top league in Lithuania qualify for notability? (actually the league itself is notable, but given the article is about a player I guess you mean playing in the league)--ClubOranjeT 08:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete Sources such as [http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=lt&u=http://www.ivartis.lt/naujienos/new-24928-%25E2%2580%259Emazeikiu%25E2%2580%259C-futbolininkams-dabar-palankus-tik-tobulejimas-ir-laikas.html&ei=UOBrTez6GMmFhQeUiP3yDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGwQ7gEwCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522a%2Blyga%2522%2Bvisi%25C5%25A1kai%2Bprofesionalus%26hl%3Den%26site%3Dwebhp%26prmd%3Divns this] seem to indicate that the A Lyga isn't fully professional (I know it's a translation, but it mentions a number of times that the club is aspiring to become professional, and explicitly states that some of their players are working other jobs during the week). Lekis isn't playing in a notable enough league at club level, and hasn't actually played for the national team yet either, so fails WP:NFOOTY. J Mo 101 (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
  • It says that the club is new so it's trying to improve, get more financing, trainers, medics, etc. It does not explicitly say that it tries to become professional - it tries to become more professional (i.e. the article does not indicate or imply whether it's starting off as an amateur, semi-professional, or professional club). However, it does says that 5 player have other jobs, that the club pays wages and pays them on time. Where does that leave us? Renata (talk) 04:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

::With several players working other jobs, and no fixed salary, I think its safe to call the club semi-pro, meaning it leaves us with an article that pretty clearly fails WP:GNG, and appears to fail WP:NSPORT as well. Sir Sputnik (talk) 04:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:::It does not say that the salary is not fixed. It says that the club pays salary, but does not say what it is based on. Renata (talk) 18:48, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

::::Then why did you say that players were payed an hourly/time-based wage earlier? In any case, a club with several part-time players is by definition not fully-professional. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:::::Ahg, I see. What I meant was: the club pays the wages in a timely fashion - the article mentions that some other clubs (not identified) are postponing wage payments due to financial difficulties. Renata (talk) 22:59, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.