Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marius Nacht

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:{{la|1=Marius Nacht}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Marius Nacht}})

Fails WP:BIO, WP:SIGCOV. Never been referenced as a BLP since it was created. No indication of significance. scope_creep^Talk 22:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople, Israel, and Romania. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
• Tagging in {{u|Atbannett}}, who contested the PROD. Atbannett, "he's a billionaire" won't go far as an argument here, but if you can provide some evidence of significant coverage in reliable, independent sources (see WP:GNG for more explanation), that's what we're looking for. -- asilvering (talk) 04:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

::Per WP:PROD, should never have been prodded as the deletion is not uncontroversial! (the bold is in the source) gidonb (talk) 04:34, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

:::You can tell that to the editor who proposed it, if you like. -- asilvering (talk) 04:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. Israeli engineer, entrepreneur, and billionaire with a biography in The Marker financial daily, written by journalist Itamar Cohen. This biography is SIGCOV. It was not just added so the intro does not hold water. In addition, there is an impressive list of references at Hewiki, just one click away. gidonb (talk) 04:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

::Gidonb, do you have evidence to say that he is notable, not the usual "he must be notable" as he is a billionaire. WP:THREE sources since that is the standard. Not paid for puff pieces. Independent secondary sourcing. The article has never been referenced since it was created? scope_creep^Talk 06:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Oh, I never do "must be notable" so your question does not make any sense. The reference in the article is not a paid for puff piece. In fact all three references are RS. The TheMarker reference is the best. It's an independent biography (just like our article), in the financial newspaper of Israel's newspaper of record. You wrote {{tq| Never been referenced as a BLP since it was created. No indication of significance.}} That's not serious. Your reaction, again, is not serious. We deserve better than that. gidonb (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

::::I'm as serious as I possibly can. Lets look at the references:

::::* [https://www.themarker.com/magazine/2021-06-01/ty-article-static-ext/0000017f-db3d-df62-a9ff-dfff1e0c0000] I'm getting a 404 on it.

::::* [https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/culture/nacht-foundation-to-fund-80-artists-to-recreate-israeli-musical-classics-637381] This mentions the Nacht foundation, nothing really on the man himself.

::::* [https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/haunted-by-holocaust-israeli-group-helps-afghans-fleeing-taliban-2733548] This article seems to be on his wife, whose a lawyer. I see no evidence that states its him explicity. It does state that he founded a charity.

::::Looking at the HU wikipedia references:

::::* [https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001330554] This comes from a press-release.

::::* Got a forbidden 403

::::* Got another 403 forbidden.

::::* [https://www.calcalist.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3770937,00.html] That is from a press-release announcing a new bank.

::::* 403 forbidden

::::* [https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001373153] Apparently his former wife owns the Globes. That also comes from a press-release.

That is first 7 references on the hu wikipedia and there is nothing there that satisfies WP:BIO. So there is no WP:THREE references that show he is notable. I've got a vpn. I'll see if I can see those 403's and the marker reference. scope_creep^Talk 14:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

::See reaction below your comment. Reacting to all claims together. gidonb (talk) 14:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I managed to view The Marker, the ref in article and one of the two 403 that were blocked in the he wikipedia. The third one was paywalled as it caught up. The first one is a X of Y who is the richest list with Nacht worth 3.5billion. Doesn't inspire confidence to call it biography. Call it what it, probably a self-written profile by his publicist, light on detail. It doesn't meet the requirement on WP:BLP "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources". The second one is not much better. All these fail WP:SIGCOV. scope_creep^Talk 14:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

::These two biographies ([https://www.ice.co.il/business-dictionary/news/article/836920 link1] and [https://www.themarker.com/magazine/2021-06-01/ty-article-static/0000017f-db3d-df62-a9ff-dfff1e0c0000 link2]) are by themselves more than sufficient to meet the General Notability Guideline. The claim that there is no identification of significance is clearly unfounded. This individual is a recognized businessman. For businesspeople, billionaire status inherently signals a level of significance far beyond that of owning two corner stores. Given the complete lack of merit in the opposing argument, perhaps consider withdrawing? gidonb (talk) 19:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Keep, He's a highly prominent businessman, co founder of Check Point, with extensive press coverage. For example, see [https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/bke9tj4hc] [https://www.timesofisrael.com/check-point-billionaire-nacht-digital-healthcare-is-israels-next-growth-engine/] [https://www.ice.co.il/business-dictionary/news/article/836920] [https://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3709201,00.html] . Whizkin (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. This nomination ranks high among the more ridiculous AfDs. Subject is very obviously notable and the references are in the article and nearby to show that. Nothing in the intro is correct. It looks as if it was written for another article, then the wrong article was nominated. gidonb (talk) 21:32, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
• :There are only three references in the article at present, two of which are not about him at all. It's hardly fair to call this "among the more ridiculous AfDs", whatever you think of the notability of the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 22:31, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Per WP:NEXIST: Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article. The bold is in the source, so we will not miss it! gidonb (talk) 22:36, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Frankly, there is not even the beginning of a case to delete this article. This AfD spits in the face of WP conventions. gidonb (talk) 15:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete: There is coverage of this person [https://www.timesofisrael.com/check-point-co-founder-nacht-invests-in-swiss-fintech-firm-numbrs/], [https://www.timesofisrael.com/billionaire-nacht-submits-plan-to-set-up-digital-bank-in-israel-report/], and [https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3731437,00.html] are coverage about his activities, not so much about the person himself. I don't see much coverage in the article, the source analysis of the new sources above seems about right, just enough in RS. Oaktree b (talk) 00:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

::Hi Oaktree b! Just like we carry Nacht's biography, two reliable sources do the same. These are comprehensive sources on the person. The links are: [https://www.ice.co.il/business-dictionary/news/article/836920 biography1] and [https://www.themarker.com/magazine/2021-06-01/ty-article-static/0000017f-db3d-df62-a9ff-dfff1e0c0000 biography2]. gidonb (talk) 02:51, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

::I edited the article so now it has 7 8 sources. Please check again. Whizkin (talk) 05:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• Keep - Nacht is one of the most prominent Israeli High-Tech Industry entrepreneurs, co-founder of Check-Point company, one of the world's pioneers in VPN and firewall, and one of the world's leaders in computer security for over 20 years. He has established other successful initiatives, and he's a billionaire. Additional sources can be found in [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Marius+Nacht%22&btnG= Google Scholar] and [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22Marius+Nacht%22 Google Books]. Tzahy (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

::Then where the coverage that verfies it. This is an enclyclopeadia and this a WP:BLP article. The BLP policy stated "Wikipedia must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. " Where are they. Its still below borderline. The fact he has founded a company isn't a notability criteria. Both of these sources were checked on a WP:BEFORE and nothing was found that could be considered a true secondary source. On google scholar it surfaced [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1742684705703062] which is an interview. On Gbooks there is lots of passing mentions that are not independent or in-depth. They don't stisfy the criteria for a WP:BLP. This [https://www.ice.co.il/business-dictionary/news/article/836920 biography1] is another puff-piece with no-byline and is an also interview. Is a paid-for article. I can't see the second reference. I will check it now with the VPN. scope_creep^Talk 15:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:::That second reference above is extremely poor financial report, looks and reads similar to the rest of these. You will need stronger references than that and shuffling to try and do WP:HEYMANN when the things don't add up is really poor. It won't stop it going back to Afd shortly. scope_creep^Talk 15:51, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

::::BTW, scope_creep, a question: Don't we have full access to billions of articles, including with paywalls in the Wikipedia Library ? Tzahy (talk) 16:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Why would you ask that. I'm sure there is. I see your an isreali IT security guy. Is that the reason you voted !keep? scope_creep^Talk 16:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::: I'm indeed Israeli, but I do not work in IT security, and I'm not a computer expert (bad for me; otherwise, my economic situation would be a lot better). Still, I devour newspapers and am interested in many areas. I asked because you wrote you don't have access and should use a firewall, so I asked indirectly if it could assist us. p.s. I didn't check thoroughly for this discussion; I want to tell you what I know from my general knowledge. I only have a BA degree in history, and in my mandatory military service, I served in a simple and not technical job. Tzahy (talk) 16:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::I'm in sofware engineering. I was firewall guy for a wee while and we used checkpoint software before we could recruit somebody. It was best firewall kit you could buy at the time. Its wa security startup. There is a lot of history, close to 30 years on the man, or possibly more, but so far I'm not seeing much. It all seems to quite modern and publicist types material, lining up the questions to ask and so. If there is anything there, it will be from the 20-30 years years ago, period. Currently all I can see is a redirect at best. scope_creep^Talk 16:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::::: I can send you a specific article if you need access to it, and I have; it's not a big deal. I have a subscription to 8 newspapers and registered in a few more, which enables me to read 4-to six free articles every month. If you are an Apple guy, there is an option to give access to hundreds of paid newspapers for 13 dollars a month (I don't use this because I don't get along with Apple products. Tzahy (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

::::This is quite a lengthy biography, and every sentence is properly cited to a prominent, reliable source, as far as I can see. Nothing is self-published or promotional. That's not something I think would be possible for a non-notable individual. I'd also like to note that the article has been significantly improved since its nomination. Whizkin (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment {{ping|scope_creep}} Stop bullying Israeli editors by overweight. Who care if you are an software engineer? Also a light reminder that WP:BLUDGEONING. I can't vote on this guy bcs I'm not sure he is notable or not. Btw I'm a Thai and Let other decide. Thanks. 1.47.5.51 (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Additional detailed analysis of sources would be very helpful. People sniping at one another is, conversely, not at all helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.