Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marlon Patersson

:{{la|Marlon Patersson}} ([{{fullurl:Marlon Patersson|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marlon Patersson}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

Contested PROD. Fails WP:ATHLETE as he never played in a fully professional league. During his 5 games at Dagenham they were not fully professional including their [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dagenham_and_redbridge/7398159.stm school teacher] top goalscorer and more notably fails WP:N having only played in the English Fourth tier.

• Delete, as nominator.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
• Keep passes WP:ATHLETE as he played for Dagenham in the fully-professional Football League Trophy [http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=559982 last season against Barnet] when Rainford wasn't at Dagenham. --Jimbo^[online] 21:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:*Comment, the Football League Trophy isnt a league game. Something you were at pains to point out during the AfD for Niall Walsh.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::*Walsh still hadn't played in a fully-professional level as WP:ATHLETE states - Cup and/or League. Come on, it was hardly "at pains" either :-) --Jimbo^[online] 22:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::*He played a League Cup game and underage international games. This player hasnt.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::*The Irish league cup? If the LoI isn't fully-pro, their league cup isn't going to be. Youth tournaments aren't deemed noteworthy for players. Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with Marlon Patersson anyway? --Jimbo^[online] 22:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::*Players in the FAI Premier Division are considered notable which has been proven in recent AfD's - according to the closing admin Walsh's AfD failed because he only played in the League Cup - not the League. This player also hasnt played in the League.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::*He has played in the Football League though. --Jimbo^[online] 22:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::*Not in a fully pro team and not in a notable league. simples.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::::*At the end of the day criteria for sportspeople is "People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport". Irish league cup isn't fully-pro. You might want to take that AfD up with the closing admin, rather than me here as there's nowt I can do. --Jimbo^[online] 22:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::*Is the Football League Trophy fully pro?--Vintagekits (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::*As far as I'm aware it is, as teams from League One and League Two compete, and there are no known part-time players in those leagues -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::*Notg only is there part timers in the league there was a part timer in this guys team. Please see link provided in the nomination above. regards--Vintagekits (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::*If you read the source it says Rainford was the only part-timer in the FL. Patersson played in the FL Trophy when Rainford was at Chelmsford. --Jimbo^[online] 22:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::::*Its not a league game and therefore not considered notable - just like you said in the Niall Walsh AfD.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)*Latching on to a previous AfD doesn't mean it's policy. If we're going to go on previous AfDs, players have kept for appearances in FL Trophy. I've backed up my point with inclusion criteria, do you have any criteria to back up what you're saying or just going to keep repeating the same point? --Jimbo^[online] 22:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:I've made my point pretty clear. Has only played in part time teams and has never played a game in a fully professional league. simples.--Vintagekits (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

::I think it's splitting hairs to say that the presence of one part-timer (and the BBC confirm he was the only one) in a league with over 500 registered players makes it a semi-pro league -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 01:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 01:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Delete Patterson's (Patersson is a misspelling) League career consists of six games. Some people interpret this as sufficient for a keep due to WP:ATHLETE, some do not. In an exhaustive hunt for sources about these league matches ([http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-city-fc/chester-city-fc-news/2007/08/31/chester-city-4-dagenham-0-59067-19715810/] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chester/6964523.stm] [http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/chester-city/2007/08/27/chester-city-4-dagenham-redbridge-0-100252-19693963/] [http://www.givemefootball.com/league-two/penney-furious-with-costly-errors-and-chester-draw] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/sport/sporttopstories/1651603.still_we_must_stick_together/] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/wrexham/7135175.stm] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/search/1897601.Daggers_slay_the_Dragons_to_move_off_the_bottom/] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/search/1889120.Still_confident_Daggers_can_see_off_Dragons/] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/search/1911006.Still_blasts_Solomon_after_second_red_card/] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dagenham_and_redbridge/7147094.stm] [http://www.football.co.uk/shrewsbury_town/davies_earns_boss__praise_257159.shtml] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/sport/sporttopstories/1923208.still_without_key_man_for_county_clash/] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2329303/Dagenham-take-positives-from-County-draw.html] [http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/latest/2007/12/27/bees-land-ko-punch-115875-20266519/] [http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/search/1927430.Fairclough_delighted_with_Daggers_victory/] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_3/7172941.stm] [http://www.thevisitor.co.uk/morecambe-sport/Blinkhorn-clinches-dramatic-Shrimps39-win.3667158.jp] [http://soccernet.espn.go.com/preview?id=233252&cc=5739&league=ENG.4&cc=5739]), there is not a single report which mentions Patterson by name in anything other than a list of lineups. Given this lack of significant sources for the most notable part of his career, he fails WP:N since the only verifiable information available is trivial. Oldelpaso (talk) 07:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment A quick search on the BBC site brings up this one [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_3/7157240.stm]. --Jimbo^[online] 21:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 08:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - [http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=45407 Soccerbase] confirms appearances in a fully-pro league, meaning he passes WP:ATHLETE. GiantSnowman 08:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:*Comment, please explain how it is can be fully pro if there is a full time teacher on the very team he plays for?--Vintagekits (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Delete I concur with Oldelpaso's post above. The guy popped his head up at the lowest notable tier for six games and is gone again. The article contains no info a stats database doesn't. I see no merit in keeping it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhealy (talk • contribs) 10:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:*An article needing improvement is no reason for deletion. And because he has appeared in a fully-pro league, he meets WP:ATHLETE, and is therefore deemed notable by current standards. GiantSnowman 10:30, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

::*Yeah but the thing is [http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dagenham_and_redbridge/7398159.stm it wasnt fully pro was it!]--Vintagekits (talk) 11:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:::*As pointed out above, though, he continued to play for Dagenham after Rainford, the only part-time player on the team, left -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

::::*Not in the league he didnt!--Vintagekits (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment - [http://www.nonleaguedaily.com/news/index.php?newsmode=FULL&nid=22758 Here] and [http://www.nonleaguedaily.com/news/index.php?newsmode=FULL&nid=48483 here] are news stories solely about him (and [http://www.nonleaguedaily.com/news/index.php?newsmode=FULL&nid=44148 here] is one predominantly about him) from the nationally published newspaper Non-League Today. He therefore passes the GNG, which supercedes WP:ATHLETE and the professional status (or otherwise) of League Two is therefore irrelevant -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Keep. As far as football is concerned, WP:ATHLETE requires that players must compete at a fully professioanl level. A competition such as the Football League Trophy (which is contested solely by fully professional teams) satisfies that requirement. The sources provided by Chris above would probably also satisfy WP:N. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:*Comment, which of the sources provided do you consider provides "significant coverage"?--Vintagekits (talk) 22:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

• Delete even if the subject meets WP:ATHLETE (which is debatable), he does not meet WP:N, which has to be met by all subjects covered into the Wikipedia project. Hence, he is simply not notable. I wouldn't consider all of these Non-League papers, since they cover solely subjects from amateur and semi-pro tiers. Also, a website that asks for direct feedback from its users[http://www.nonleaguedaily.com/feedback/index.php] does not look particularly reliable. --Angelo (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:*Non-League Daily is a nationally-distributed newspaper (not just a website) and is regarded as very reliable by the football community in the UK. As far as WP:ATHLETE is concerned, this AfD was raised because during the time he was playing in the football league, Dagenham had a part-time schoolteacher on their books - he was only part-timer in the entire league and the nominator has taken this to mean this is enough to make the whole league semi-professional. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 06:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

::::*But thats where you are wrong darling! Jamie Forrester runs a football school away from his work at the club, Dave McKearney at Morcambe kept his job when Morcambe went into the League, John Askey was an insurance saleman when he played for Macclesfield, Darren Tinson was an anaesthetist, Liam Dickinson was a graphic designer when he was playing for Stockport County, Neil Howarth was a journalist when he was playing for Macclesfield, Paul O'Connor worked in the Wilkinson Sword factory near Hartlepool whilsts playing for them and famously had to missed a reply in the FA Cup against York because his boss wouldnt let him change his shift! and this season it looks like there will be [http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/football/Pesch-reaches-verbal-agreement-Stride-s-long-record-going/article-1010769-detail/article.html more part time players]!--Vintagekits (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::*As far as Burton are concerned, their chairman has confirmed they are going full time now they have bene promoted.[http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/apr/17/burton-albion-promotion-league-blue-square] Jamie Forrester isn't working full-time at his football academy and is on a full-time professional contract, John Askey left his job when signing full-time for Macclesfield ([http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-full-circle-for-maccs-eager-askey-1172738.html]), Liam Dickingson only worked part-time when he was playing for non-league clubs, ([http://www.seagulls.co.uk/page/Latest/0,,10433~1721741,00.html]) Howarth's journalism job consists of a weekly column in local newspapers.([http://www.wiki-north-east.co.uk/article.aspx?id=12137]) I can't find anything to confirm that Dave McKearney was working part-time while playing in the league. The only Football League part-timer you've got there is Paul O'Connor - together with Dave Rainford you've got two very rare exceptions, and its highly unlikely that'd be enough to convince anyone (let alone WP:FOOTY or the Wikipedia community as a whole) that League 2 isn't fully professional. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 10:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::*Burton - the chairman might say they are going full time - but that is not the case - chairmen and truth eh! Jamie Forrester does run his academy and doesnt train every day wit the the squad. John Askey did continue with his insurance job for the majority of his career. Howarth not only wrote for the Macclesfield express he also attended university in Bolton doing a degree in journalism whilst also playing for Macc. Darren Tinson still works in the medical field - and was at university whilst playing and working another job! And you admit to O'Connor and Rainford - now i know you are a stickler for complying with the rules so if we apply them here like you like to apply them elsewhere then they fail WP:ATH.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::*Could you provide sources for all your facts please? Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 10:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

::*Indeed - at what point do we stop considering coverage in nationally-distributed newspapers and magazines as sufficient to establish notability just because they "only" cover a "niche" subject? Would we not consider coverage in Kerrang! magazine sufficient to establish notability for a band just because it "only" covers heavy metal music? Would we not consider coverage in SFX sufficient to establish notability for a film just because it "only" covers science fiction subjects? Surely publications which employ professional journalistic staff and are available in every newsagent, supermarket, petrol station and kiosk throughout the country are indisputably reliable sources, regardless of their subject matter? Also, the BBC website accepts direct feedback from its readers (I know this because I once e-mailed them pointing out an error in a news story and they changed it) but that doesn't make it unreliable -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Allowing to use these references from a paper that exclusively and deliberately focuses on amateur and semi-pro teams and players is a huge contradiction to what WP:ATHLETE says. Am I the only one who can realize this? I don't think so. And the comparison with Kerrang! or other magazines you propose just makes no sense: I don't really think such magazines solely focus on amateur musicians... Also, the Non-League Daily feedback page looks more like allowing its users to provide actual content (articles, game reports, pictures, etc...) rather than simply commenting articles and asking for error fixes. --Angelo (talk) 11:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::But it's not as if it goes striaght on their site. Obviously they have to check and verify such items if they are submitted, much like any media outlet - they hear news, investigate, publish a story if relevant. Most news from major outlets, come through associations such as the Press Association, news about major footballers is almost always second hand, news on non-League footballers isn't going to get a greater coverage than Premier League footballers as the coverage isn't as wide, thus asking people to send in any items that may be deemed noteworthy. I don't see any evidence that such "submissions" have ever occured either on any news item, i.e. submitted by Joe Bloggs, Random F.C. fan - forum/blog-esque. --Jimbo^[online] 11:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

• Keep Passes WP:BIO and WP:N. Mattythewhite (talk) 12:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:*Comment, how? why?--Vintagekits (talk) 12:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

::*The same as how I explained at the Richard Graham (Northern Ireland footballer) nomimation; WP:BIO due to his having played in a fully professional league with Dagenham & Redbridge, and WP:N due to the subject having "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", courtesy of the Non-League Daily and BBC reports. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 12:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::*A. it isnt a "fully professional league" as D&R had a full time school teacher in their team. Not to mention the other part timers I outlined. B. "significant coverage" - I dont think so. Marlon joined this club, Marlon left this club to join that club and play along side a school teacher. Hardly significant coverage!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Keep Clearly passes WP:ATHLETE BigDom 17:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Keep, clearly meets WP:ATHLETE, sources provide verification and arguably satisfies WP:N. Nomination smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT - what is the real argument for deletion here? Is it because League Two isn't professional (an absurdity) or is it because this player has received insufficient media coverage? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• Keep for having played in a fully professional competition. Perhaps some WP:POINT going on because of lasting debate over Irish players. matt91486 (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.