Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Layne Collins High School

:{{la|Martha Layne Collins High School}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Layne Collins High School}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{findsources|Martha Layne Collins High School}})

Per wp:gng. Non notable, not even functioning as a school. Click23 (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep: Since all high schools are treated as inherently notable, I see little benefit to deleting it since it will open in about 5 months.--Milowent (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. —Milowent (talk) 20:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Actually, that is FALSE. High schools are NOT inherently notable, that is just a BS opinion spouted by some people. High schools have to pass the general notability guidelines or they get delete, end of story. TJ Spyke 23:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• From the consensus I've seen, every high school AfD like this ends in a keep.--Milowent (talk) 02:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep—I think there are currently enough citations present to satisfy even the basic notability requirements. Being a non-functioning school is irrelevant in this regard.—RJH (talk) 22:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep If the only objection is that it won't open until August, forgetaboutit. Mandsford (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Delete Fails notability guidelines. TJ Spyke 23:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 01:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. All high schools are notable, and the article has multiple references. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 23:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Keep – As a high school, it should have its own page, but I would feel better about the article if it had already opened. ^Pepper∙_piggle 00:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - While high schools are usually considered notable, they are not technically inherently notable. It also fails my own standards and WP:CRYSTAL. Bearian (talk) 00:14, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

:::: If they had only recently started pouring the concrete, I would agree with you on WP:CRYSTAL, but there is no indication that this is behind schedule. As with any other school planning for the 2010-2011 school year, nobody waits until July to be ready for an August opening. Mandsford (talk) 13:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• Delete if Shelbyville, Kentucky is due for a new school, then mention that in Shelbyville, Kentucky article.--Scott Mac (Doc) 00:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. WP:CRYSTAL exists to discourage articles about unverifiable future events. Those that are verifiable, notable and almost certain to take place are fine. The guideline continues: "If preparation for the event is not already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented." In this case, the building is under construction, and has been under construction since March 2009. So I think the article passes notability. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 01:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per Eastmain and Mandsford. Sources already exist, the article crisply recapitulates the facts, and the school is opening in a few months. The article in its current state is a perfectly good start of a typical high school article. What is the point of deleting it now, only to force someone to generate the article anew in August? --Arxiloxos (talk) 05:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep All high schools are notable. In fact, the school has several sources that establish its notability. See [http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/c2.cgi?019+article+Schools+20090709144149019019002 this article], [http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/c2.cgi?019+article+Schools+2009102014380019019007 this article], and [http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/c2.cgi?019+article+Schools+20090727182448019019013 this article] from Sentinel News. Such sources demonstrate that the article does not fail WP:CRYSTAL because verifiability is met. Deleting a well-sourced, notable topic so that it can be recreated in six months is a waste of time. Cunard (talk) 08:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Schools fall under wp:org, wp:org states ""Notable" is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance," and even organizations that editors personally believe are "important" are only accepted as notable if they can be shown to have attracted notice. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is. If the individual organization has received no or very little notice, then it is not notable simply because other individual organizations of its type are commonly notable or merely because it exists". I see several people state "All high schools are notable", show me in a policy or guideline. Yes it does seem to be consensus if you look back at other AFDs, but every time it has been up for a policy proposal it gets rejected. If a city was to build a city park and name it after a former governor, and three articles were written about it in the local paper, would it be considered notable? Click23 (talk) 18:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

:::: WP:ORG simply provides that "An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." There is no requirement in that statement that the coverage has to be more than local or regional. High schools are an important part of any community, hence they receive more continuing coverage in the local media, more so than most other organizations. The observation in WP:OUTCOMES is "Schools are frequently nominated for deletion. The current notability guideline for schools and other education institutions is WP:ORG. Most, but not all, high schools and other secondary schools are able to meet the standard and are therefore frequently kept at AfD discussions." The current outcome is that the line has to be drawn somewhere, so middle schools and elementary schools are not given the same presumption of being able to meet the standard, and the preferred result is that those get mentioned in an article about the school district. Most high schools will not receive national or international reknown, but the same could be said about most small colleges. However, there are arguments to support the proposition that all high schools are important, the main ones being that (1) they are the heart of the community, be it a small town or a section of a large city, and that (2) they provide the earliest level of certification of educational attainment for people worldwide. Many will go beyond their high school diploma and seek further education, of course, but a comparable number will not. Mandsford (talk) 16:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:*And to add to Mandsford's comment, having these fairly bright line rules has provided consistency and reduced time spent on AfDs. I know its not a formal policy but the consensus is very strong. Some recent AfDs for examples: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BEST High School (Kirkland, Washington), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poland Central School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Everest Public High School. In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poland Central School, Phil Bridger also commented: "I don't recall any article being deleted in the last couple of years about a high school that is verified to exist, so, in this case, keeping certainly is the common outcome."--Milowent (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::WP:GNG also states " A single independent source is almost never sufficient for demonstrating the notability of an organization." and "... attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability.". I just do not see how a high school is notable just because it is a high school. As I stated before an organization "is not notable simply because other individual organizations of its type are commonly notable or merely because it exists""(wp:org. Click23 (talk) 18:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Well, interpreting that language in favor of deletion here would go against long term consensus, as I could cite many many AfD keeps of high schools, many less sourced or sourceable than this one. As the existence of the high school is verifiable, and the statements contained in the article are sourced, what's the harm in keeping the article? What's the benefit of deletion?--Milowent (talk) 20:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::"What's the benefit of deletion?" wikipedia has standards for what can become an article, and this clearly does not pass those standards. There has been consensus within the afd process that all high schools are notable, but it has failed to reach a consensus when when brought up to establish a policy. So which one wins? My guess is afd, because it seems this is the de facto policy here, no matter what WP:ORG states. Click23 (talk) 21:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::::::The reason why a schools guideline has not been achieved is because whatever standard has been proposed, school inclusionists have found them too exclusive and schools deletionists have found them too inclusive. It only requires a vocal, determined minority to block a guideline even if it has broad support. TerriersFan (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment No opinion on the merits of this particular article, but I'd like to echo the statements made by TJ Spyke and Click23 on the importance of WP:N and WP:ORG to dispel the idea that all high schools are inherently notable. ThemFromSpace 23:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:*I think the current consensus handling of these AfDs is good because it avoids huge debates. AfDs are administrative overhead to the project.--Milowent (talk) 01:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - high school pages should be expanded not deleted. I support the arguments at WP:NHS. I see no value in deleting the page just because the school has yet to open only to recreate it later in the year. TerriersFan (talk) 03:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.