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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Westbrooks

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 20:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

=[[Michael Westbrooks]]=

:{{la|Michael Westbrooks}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Westbrooks}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{findsources|Michael Westbrooks}})

Does an appearance in the irish national basketball team qualify as notable per WP:Athlete? No indication of professional competition, no appearances in olympics or world championships. No significant coverage as an individual either. Polargeo (talk) 11:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

:*I don't think being part of a national team is enough, see this AFD, and Ireland has never made the World Championships, and only made the Olympics shortly after WW2, so criteria 2 of WP:ATHLETE isn't passed. Is Ireland's Superleague a fully professional league? Well, [http://www.ucdmarian.com/site/index.php UCD Marian's] website, a member of the Superleague, calls themselves "semi-professional". So, Delete as failing WP:ATHLETE. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 13:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

:That's not actually what WP:ATHLETE says. It never mentions national teams at all. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

  • If you actually want to go through precedent on AfDs, this is what we've always used. National team appearances = notability at the highest level of amateur sport. Which is in fact what WP:ATHLETE says. matt91486 (talk) 16:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

:::But he has not competed at the highest level firstly because basketball is a professional sport and he hasn't competed at a professional level and secondly he hasn't even competed at the highest amateur level because the Irish national team has not got through to the highest amateur level. There is a line which we should draw somewhere and I think it is usually drawn rather higher than this with athletes. If we did draw it at this level we could have articles on all sorts of individuals. I suggest starting with the Suriname national cricket team and moving on to the Scottish elephant polo team. Polargeo (talk) 13:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Despite your argument of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, this is where we have drawn the line before. There are other basketball AfDs that have been kept on the basis of national team appearances. I have absolutely no idea how to find them in the archives, unfortunately (which I know would make life easier for everyone). It doesn't matter that basketball has professional leagues - it still has a non-professional arena. matt91486 (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

::::My argument is that he fails WP:Athlete. Your argument appears to be WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but you can't find it and somehow if you did it would make a difference. Polargeo (talk) 10:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::He has not competed at the highest level of amateur basketball. My illustrations above may be extreme but are intended to show that competing for a national team is not the same thing as competing at the highest level if either the sport is very minor or the national team does not compete at the highest level. Can Irish national basketball be considered at the same level as the Suriname national cricket team? Possibly. We are talking about a country with a population of around 5 million and absolutely no real tradition of playing basketball. Basketball is a very minor sport in Ireland, see Sport in Ireland#Basketball. Note that three brothers in his family all made the Irish team. Their dad is a coach. It is likely that a bit of time playing basketball in US colleges was sufficient that in Ireland they are national level. If he had taken part in the olympics or a world championships he would meet WP:Athlete but he has not and is unlikely to. Polargeo (talk) 10:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::EuroBasket is a major continental tournament, and Ireland has been competing in the qualifying stages for it. Westbrook has presumably been on the roster for the EuroBasket qualifiers. It's a complete red herring to correlate the Suriname national cricket team, because they are not playing a role in a major tournament as the Irish team is. matt91486 (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::I think you have just suggested that Ireland has not qualified even for Eurobasket. WP:Athlete demands a bit higher than the qualification round for eurobasket and you don't even have any sources to say that Westbrook played in it anyway. In this case my comparrison with the Suriname national cricket team is far from being a red herring. Polargeo (talk) 11:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::I was saying it's a red herring because there was no major continental South American cricket tournament that they could even qualify for. I think we pretty clearly just have different views on notability for international competition.

  • Merge into a new article on the Westbrooks family and their favourite pastime.Red Hurley (talk) 15:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

::I think it should be noted that this is a humorous suggestion just in case a very serious admin takes this one :) Polargeo (talk) 10:39, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::No I'm serious - tho' usually I do like to be thought of as humorous....sometimes. Their basket may be out of reach.Red Hurley (talk) 11:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete I will first say that I'm unfamiliar with any AfD precedent in this area, so this is all my own judgement.[http://www.basketballireland.ie/basketballireland/faq.jsp] says there can be professional players in the SuperLeague, but I have been unable to find any sources saying that he's one of them and with Ireland's lack of performance at the "highest level", he fails both parts of WP:ATHLETE. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.