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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michelle Alyssa Go

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is no consensus (at this point) as to whether to merge this content with existing articles about the NY subway, as people disagree about the lasting importance of the event, but there is consensus that the article - if it is to be kept - should be retitled and rewritten to be about the killing (or death, or murder, as to be determined by editors), not the victim. Sich an article can then be renominated at AfD if desired. Sandstein 10:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

=[[:Michelle Alyssa Go]]=

{{AFD help}}

:{{la|1=Michelle Alyssa Go}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Michelle Alyssa Go}})

WP:ONEVENT Ymblanter (talk) 07:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

:* Reply - {{yo|Dougal18}}, History of the New York City Subway mentions Michelle Go. Your comment sounds like "delete or move". If possible, I would like to keep the article history. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:26, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

  • Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:VICTIM. The article however can be merged to the Death of Michelle Alyssa Go, if her passes GNG.--VictorRocks (talk) 11:52, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Retitle to Death of Michelle Alyssa Go or Death of Michelle Go. X-Editor (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Title. I briefly heard about this death yesterday, and saw Internet news on it today. If her death is or becomes WP:NOTABLE, the standard title would be "Death of Michelle Alyssa Go" or "Death of Michelle Go" (as suggested by others). GBFEE (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Keep but Change Title. I heard about this on the news. I think this article is fine, but I do agree with others that it should be renamed "Death of Michelle Alyssa Go" or "Death of Michelle Go". MichaelFansz (talk) 22:18, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Retitle for now or merge - Retitle to "Death of Michelle Go" for now, or merge to the train station at which the incident occurred. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Retitle and merge it - You know what I changed my mind. I think we should merge like the others said. Hopefully, we can also make the criminal (Simon Martial's page) or we can merge with the article. But first, lets find Simon Martial's early life. --VictorRocks (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Move page to Death of Michelle Alyssa Go Per others. - FlightTime (open channel) 02:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Delete This is a tragedy but it fails WP:GNG WP:VICTIM but add to the station as stated by @Jax 0677.Yousef Raz (talk) 04:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

:* Comment - {{yo|Yousef Raz}}, why should this not be redirected with history instead of deleted? --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

:**{{yo|Jax 0677}} Redirect to the station article. The history can stay.Yousef Raz (talk) 21:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

  • Retitle Rename to focus on the murder, not the subject. Michelle Alyssa Go seems to have been a wonderful person, but she obviously does not meet the guidelines required for a biography or a standalone article. Her notability is based solely on her tragic death. Most people believe that articles covering such criminal events do not belong on Wikipedia, but the article is well-sourced and does no harm. Otherwise Merge to the train station's article, to History of the New York City Subway, or to New York City Subway. Mooonswimmer 16:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Delete or merge per WP:NVICTIM. This article could be renamed, but I do not believe that would be sufficient to prove notability of the subject, either. While this is tragic, there are over a hundred people struck by NYC Subway trains each year (dozens fatally). To have an article about just one such incident is a violation of WP:NOTNEWS; unless there is evidence of the long-term significance of this specific incident, it is not notable. As to places where people have suggested merging this: New York City Subway is a GA, so it's undue coverage to include this there. Maybe History of the New York City Subway might fit, but again, dozens of people in NYC are struck by trains just in a single year. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

:* Reply - {{yo|Epicgenius}}, History of the New York City Subway mentions Michelle Go. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

:*: Because you added her there yesterday. It does not mean there is consensus to mention her there.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:30, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

:*::Yeah, and I'm confused about the two other edits as well. On the Times Square–42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal station, the info was added to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Times_Square%E2%80%9342nd_Street%2FPort_Authority_Bus_Terminal_station&type=revision&diff=1067132933&oldid=1066382168 both a see-also and its own subsection], and a {{tl|current}} tag was added (no other edits were made in the hours immediately afterward). Judging from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_York_City_Subway&diff=prev&oldid=1067321565 this], it seems like the info about Go's death was just copied from the station's article and placed at the bottom of "History", which describes the history of the entire system. I'm not sure of the long-term significance of this incident, as per my !vote above. However, it feels to me like mentioning the victim in the three articles (NYCS, History of the NYCS, Times Square station) was more of a way to prevent this page from being orphaned, rather than actually integrating the incident with these three articles. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

:*:::Epicgenius, Go was pushed, which puts her in a specific subcategory of the "over a hundred people struck by NYC Subway trains each year". The "murdered by being pushed in front of a subway train" factor isn't as common as the accidental subway train injuries and deaths, and maybe not as common as people using the subway for suicide. I'm not saying Go's notable, but her murder has sparked discussion about this particular safety problem -- avoiding someone pushing you onto the tracks or into a train while on a subway. It's also led to discussion of how to accommodate mentally ill homeless people at the subway, including those who might have homicidal thoughts. Of course, if Go's death results in change, Wikipedia can always create a page for her later. GBFEE (talk) 20:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:*::::@GBFEE, I see your point regarding pushings. However, even in that case, this incident isn't particularly unique; [https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-mta-subway-shoves-mental-health-trend-20210215-rrjrggdvsjhppnbra5j2mdk5km-story.html just last year] there were six incidents in which people were pushed to the tracks by mentally unstable people (none of whom died). Actually, this is part of a [https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-subway-violent-crime-uptick-20220122-wb2wcqun7vgt5dlfafq2sbbvtu-story.html larger trend] of crime in the subway going up. I do agree that if this case turns out to be notable, Go (or her pushing specifically) can always have a page. But the topic of platform safety has come up quite a bit in past pushings, and I'm not yet convinced this particular incident meets NVICTIM, because this is unfortunately too common. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:*:::::Epicgenius, yes, I know it's happened before. I was simply saying she's in a specific category that appears to be less common than the general one. I don't know how common the "pushed onto the tracks by mentally ill or non-mentally ill people" thing is, or how common the murder result is from that action. But I wouldn't say the murder result is common. I looked for data on it and didn't find that to be the case. It's hard to find data on it. I understand and accept your concerns about creating this article. GBFEE (talk) 20:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

  • Move to Death of Michelle Go as suggested by others. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 23:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Retitle to Murder of Michelle Alysse Go. What an utterly silly suggestion. There are hundreds of "Murder of X" articles on Wikipedia. This death has been covered extensively by the New York Times and other media. It should be retitled to Murder of Michelle Alyssa Go, but otherwise, this is an absurd and frankly censorious delete request. I also think it's silly that it's being suggested that the article be titled "Death" instead of "Murder", which seems to be against wikipedia's custom when the reason the death is notable is the fact that it was by homicide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.207.202.210 (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
  • : Sure, I particularly appreciate opinions of IP users about my mental abilities. This is the most important thing in my life.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:55, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
  • : Per WP:MURDER articles should only be titled “Murder of” if the culprit was found guilty of murder. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.