Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montenegrin-Albanian Conflicts

:{{la|Montenegrin-Albanian Conflicts}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Montenegrin-Albanian_Conflicts Stats])

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Original research. Theme not present in RS. Zoupan 15:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Comment, the article creator, {{u|Dzepo4}} has been found to be a sockpuppet. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:27, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
• Keep. The topic is notable. I'm not sure what the nom means exactly by "Theme not present in RS". The sources cited in the existing article are reliable. If they have been mishandled by a banned user (I didn't check other than to see that the topic is present in the works), that's not a reason to delete the article. The title should perhaps be changed to better describe the topic, maybe even the scope broadened to Albanian–Montenegrin relations, but those are separate discussions to have. Srnec (talk) 18:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment, {{u|Srnec}} I do not see a series of clashes and battles between the Kingdom of Montenegro and Albanian highlanders and Ottoman irregulars, mostly from the Vilayet of Kosovo, and the League of Prizren. The conflicts stretched from the 1850s to 1945 in any of the works as a theme. It is a synthesization of Malissori rebellions with later unconnected conflicts (Balkan Wars and World War II), presenting Montenegro as an invader/occupier and Albanians as persecuted and patriots. The article is terribly off. It should not be kept.--Zoupan 04:22, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

• Delete. Original research and heavy POV present throughout the article, sources are used selectively and maliciously in order to support the author's bias. Also, as noted already, the article tries to connect entirely different and unrelated historical events into a single narrative which presents the two nations as enemies, with Montenegro being portrayed as a villain in the relation. In short, the article has no encyclopedic value whatsoever. Sideshow Bob 13:41, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment -- While this is far from being a good article, I am not sure that it is so bad that it needs to be deleted. It ought to be possible to produce a NPOV article on this subject. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

• Weak delete - Fails NPOV. We have articles on List of wars involving Albania and List of wars involving Montenegro. Focusing just on those conflicts between the two countries seems to focus on the POV of the article creator that conflicts between these two countries from 1850 to 1945 should be grouped in this way, and I don't see reliable sources that agree. Smmurphy^(Talk) 15:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

:*I don't think the grouping is a POV. I think it just follows from the sources. The period in question is one of upheaval in the Balkans. It is also the period in which Albania really comes into being and Montenegro joins the international community. To me, it doesn't make much sense to talk about Montenegrin–Albanian conflict in a period before there were clear Montenegrin and Albanian identities, or before the border between the two became a rigid international one. The article may need a lot of work, but I hate to see an article on obscure but real events (clashes between tribesmen and sometimes regular soldiers in the border region between Montenegro and Albania during the rise of Balkan nationalisms and the decline of the Ottoman Empire) deleted because it needs a lot of work and that work is hard to do. Srnec (talk) 00:55, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

::*I'm not an expert, but my concern is grouping conflicts between the Principality of Montenegro and the Albanians under Ottoman rule in the 1850s up to the 1880s, the Balkan War, WWI, WWII, and "Modern Times". I think it would be more sensible to write one article about the first, pre-Albanian independence period and a second, post-Albanian independence article about Montenegro-Albanian relations (similar to Albania–Serbia relations or Kosovo–Montenegro relations). The bulk of this article is the former, and such an article could end with mention of post-independence conflicts. I don't know if the Balkan War is more similar to the earlier conflicts or the later, but grouping the 1850s-1880 conflict seems to match fairly well with the Reid 2000 reference. I've struck my vote in anticipation of either your showing that the post-1912 conflicts are grouped with pre-1912 conflicts (as opposed to conflict just being a normal aspect of political relations between European neighbors) or your agreeing with focusing this article on the pre-1912 conflicts (and particularly c1850-c1880) and splitting the rest into an article about post-independence bilateral relations (in this case, I am happy/willing to help develop both articles). Let me know what you (or others) think. Smmurphy^(Talk) 01:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

::*For some reason I forgot your first proposal that the article perhaps be renamed "Montenegrin-Albanian relations". Rather than make a different proposal, I've struck what I just wrote. I !vote Keep, and if the article is kept, will develop and discussing the article's at the article. I'm fine if the outcome of the AfD is rename; even if it isn't I agree with Srnec that content issues can be dealt with within the regular editing process. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:02, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

:::*I've been working on this article on my computer all day and I just can't seem to turn it into something NPOV without more or less rewriting it completely. As I said in my first struck comment, I'd be happy to help write an article on post-independence bilateral relations and possibly another on conflicts from the 1850s. But I don't think this article works for me as a starting point for either of those. Smmurphy^(Talk) 02:56, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.