Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muamar family detention incident

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Non-notable incident, no sustained coverage. Thousands of Palestinians are arrested by Israel yearly.

The information the IDF extracted from the two was that Palestinian militants were planning to infiltrate Israel through tunnels so they could take IDF soldier captives. This indeed happened the next day, leading to the notable abduction of Gilad Shalit, but the detention of the Muamars arguably had nothing to do with it, so there is nothing that sets their arrest apart from the hundreds/thousands of other similar arrests each year. Mooonswimmer 12:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events and Israel. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:01, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• Keep This is one of the triggering incidents of the 2006 Gaza-Israel conflict [https://archive.today/2023.07.22-151720/https://chomsky.info/20090119 per a well-established researcher] and it was considered significant by [https://web.archive.org/web/20110605183314/https://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2006/06/200849134420867131.html Al Jazeera English] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20190827124511/https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5112846.stm BBC News]. One of the fundamental flaws in judging WP:NOTABILITY in terms of media attention is the quantitative evidence of the Herman-Chomsky empirically supported model of the media. While we normally expect to have wide media coverage to consider an event notable, this incident is notable due to the fact that one of the world's best-known researchers brought attention to it as a triggering event, and due to his reasonable inference that some or more of the five filters of the model were massively reducing media attention to the incident despite its significance: Chomsky correctly says that arbitrarily arresting civilians is a human rights violation while detaining a member of the opposing military forces is legal. I've adjusted the lead to clarify this. There's nothing in the article about "extracting information" ({{tq|information the IDF extracted from the two}}) from the Muamar brothers, so that's currently WP:OR.{{pb}}In any case, WP:NOTPAPER. The long-term significance of the event may only be known in another 20 or 50 years when the Arab Spring 3.0 or 6.0 has led to more thorough historical analysis based on the evidence. There's no point hiding this from the encyclopedic record. Boud (talk) 16:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• :In the Chomsky source you liked ([https://archive.ph/2023.07.22-151720/https://chomsky.info/20090119#selection-127.0-130.0 “Exterminate all the Brutes”: Gaza 2009]), there is only one mention of the brothers, which is:
• :::"One day before Hamas captured Shalit, Israeli soldiers entered Gaza City and kidnapped two civilians, the Muamar brothers, bringing them to Israel to join the thousands of other prisoners held there, hundreds reportedly without charge. Kidnapping civilians is a far more serious crime than capturing a soldier of an attacking army, but as is the norm, it was barely reported in contrast to the furor over Shalit."
• :Could you point out where he states that the detention was one of the triggering incidents of the 2006 Gaza-Israel conflict?
• :"There's nothing in the article about "extracting information" (information the IDF extracted from the two) from the Muamar brothers, so that's currently WP:OR." My apologies for not linking my [https://www.jpost.com/Israel/Gaza-fighting-impeding-Schalit-talks source].
• :If there are sources that note the incident as a triggering incident of the 2006 Israel–Gaza conflict then notability may indeed be argued. Mooonswimmer 16:25, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• ::Clarification: by "triggering" event, I didn't mean a claim of an established causal connection; I only meant one of the events immediately prior to the main outbreak of the war that is seen by a prominent, objective observer of events in relation to human rights violations, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, and their media coverage, as having a high enough probability of having a causal effect to be historically significant. Research to establish the decision-making by Palestinian and Israeli military and human-rights-violating forces depends on information that may not become available to researchers for decades to come. Since the International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine only covers events starting from 13 June 2014, we're unlikely to get legally confirmed data on this from the ICC. The popular narrative is that the detention of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian forces was a "cause", and we already have that popular narrative documented. This encyclopedia should not purely be an amplifier for media narratives, even if it is unavoidably strongly influenced by them. Boud (talk) 19:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• Delete. As a linguist and polemicist, Chomsky's WP:SPS is not an WP:RS here to establish WP:GNG or to make a judgement about whether this was an event that triggered the 2006 Gaza-Israel conflict. Even if so, this wouldn't need its own article, vs merging into the 2006 Gaza-Israel conflict article. This was a routine detention by the Israeli military that likely happens hundreds of times per year. Longhornsg (talk) 17:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• : "Polemicist" is misleading: Chomsky does not aim to create controversy, he just follows basic academic principles of looking at the evidence and aiming to apply principles consistently based on the most reasonable interpretation of the data. (He has missed several pieces of key information in the case of the 2022 full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, but at his age, it's unsurprising that he cannot judge the validity of a lot of high-quality online information; valid reasoning that is missing key information leads to different conclusions than valid reasoning based on fuller information.) You omitted the fact that Chomsky is one of the authors of the most solid model of how the Western media operate, in particular in relation to human rights violations and war crimes. As for "routine detention", Israel is the occupying power, so no matter how "routine" the illegal detention is, if it attracts some media attention and the attention of a well-known researcher as this one did, then it's notable. Boud (talk) 19:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• ::That's not the definition of WP:GNG on Wikipedia. It's not based on the opinion of editors or some concocted definition of notable of what should be notable. Please keep opinions out of this and stick to WP policy and rules here. Sure, Chomsky is a more reliable source on the propaganda model. That doesn't mean his opinions hold the same analytical weight on geopolitical matters as WP:RS. Chomsky's interest in a specific event does not give it notability, but WP:SIGCOV does. He is not the determinant of what is notable/ Longhornsg (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• :Chomsky is a well known political commentator, even though it isn't his field of expertise his opinion is still notable. Crainsaw (talk) 07:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Keep As Boud pointed out, it has notable coverage, it also has sustained coverage. "Thousands of Palestinians are arrested by Israel yearly.", notability, if those arrests aren't notable, they can't have an article. If they are notable, then create an article rather of deleting another article on the grounds of "Well, the other article doesn't exist, so let's delete this one rather than creating the other article" Crainsaw (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
• :That is the point. How is this arrest notable compared to any of the other arrests? Is it notable because Chomsky made a brief mention of the arrest in an article of his? Mooonswimmer 23:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 20:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Delete. It happened, and a pundit commented on it. That does not establish notability. There's no notability exception for "the mainstream media is covering it up". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Delete. I have given this a lot of thought as even the first of mondane events may carry some weight and Chomsky is a famous, for this purpose, activist. Still, it remains an extremely minor and routine event in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and little can be/is being said about the event other than time and again that Chomsky thought it was neverthless important. Fortunately no one died during the arrest. The Palestinian claim that the detained are not Hamas militants does not help the notability either yet should be taken into account. Just another day in a sad environment. The bar for a redirect, on the other hand, has been met. gidonb (talk) 23:16, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

{{clear}}

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