Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nagadai

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:{{la|1=Nagadai}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Nagadai}})

In this disambiguation page, none of the articles listed have titles related to "Nagadai". It is unclear why this page was created. ZyphorianNexus ^Talk 10:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. ZyphorianNexus ^Talk 10:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:Delete per nom. If a disambiguation page has nothing to do with the articles it contains, it need not exist. Eelipe (talk) 16:42, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking at open AfDs, I am also nominating the following related pages because they follows the same format:

: {{la|Fukudai}}, originally nominated by me

: {{la|Hirodai}}, originally nominated by me

: {{la|Kyukodai}}, originally nominated by {{u|Miminity}}

Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 05:22, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Also nominating:

: {{la|Shidai}}

: {{la|Shindai}}

: {{la|Aidai (disambiguation)}}

: {{la|Hokudai}}

: {{la|Meidai}}

Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 05:50, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delete: Based on my understanding, "dai" is the Japanese equivalent of saying "uni" instead of university, so these disambiguation pages are basically for "Naga uni". Given the double step from shortening to "Naga Uni" to the Japanese usage of "Nagadai", I do not think this is an appropriate disambiguation page for the English Wikipedia, but I'm happy to be corrected. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 05:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Comment: Removing my delete !vote after further consideration. I haven't landed on a new !vote yet. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Lean keep per my comments to Absurdum4242 below. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:53, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delete clearly case of WP:DABPARTIAL. Also "Dai" is the shorten term for University in Japanese. (shorten for Daigaku) Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 10:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• :Um, no it isn't. Daigaku is always just that; the shortened form only occurs in contractions of university names. Imaginatorium (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 10:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Comment Okay, please bear in mind that I only took Japanese for a couple years and it's been a while, and nor do I get a lot of nuances. 長大, when read as ながだい / nagadai, is actually an abbreviation for Nagano University and Nagaoka University. [https://jisho.org/search/%20%E3%81%AA%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A0%E3%81%84]2 . However, 長大 is apparently read as choudai when referring to Nagasaki University. So neither of the deletion arguments works right now. That being said, I'm not entirely sure who will be typing in an abbreviation in romaji on the English Wikipedia. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 10:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delete all. It's not appropriate for this Wikipedia. Bearian (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delete all - unlikely search terms. --John B123 (talk) 06:23, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Unnecessary disambiguations for non-notable nicknames are just silly. MimirIsSmart (talk) 06:26, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep If the term is one which may be searched for, then the disambiguation page is a good one. Same rationale for Hirodai. Such pages conform to WP:DISAMBIG because "for [the] word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing English Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead."{{pb}}The foreign language argument is a red herring. For example, we disambiguate Jiaoda and Beida as Jiaotong and Peking Universities. Slightly less straightfoward example is how we disambiguate Shida to various Chinese universities (and other topics). Oblivy (talk) 05:34, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:*Comment: I have moved {{u|Oblivy}}'s comment from the Fukudai discussion, which I have procedurally closed. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 06:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:* Comment: Jiaoda and Beida are redirects, not the titles for disambiguation pages. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:*:I acknowledge that below, with respect to whether the target article has to include the search term. But I think of disambiguation and redirect as serving two serve similar functions -- under WP:NOPRIMARY two redirects can equal a disambiguation page -- and think the two redirects I mentioned are of value for discussion. Oblivy (talk) 21:37, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment Is there a source for Kyukodai being an abbreviation for Kurume Institute of Technology - and if so, how's it written? I've only found uses of it for Kyushu Institute of Technology (as 九工大, e.g. in names of stations near the campuses). Adam Sampson (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• :And there seem to be slightly more hits for Kyushukodai (九州工大) for the latter... Adam Sampson (talk) 18:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:*Comment: I have moved {{u|Adam Sampson}}'s comments from the Kyukodai discussion, which I have procedurally closed. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 06:38, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• Delete: Not appropriate for English Wikipedia, I agree with Significa liberdade, Thanks for the ping. I reviewed it because it was just a disambiguation. I will keep this in my mind for future. Taabii (talk) 07:20, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• 九工大　(valid abbreviation in kanji [https://jisho.org/search/%E4%B9%9D%E5%B7%A5%E5%A4%A7]) is read as　ききゅうこうだい / kyuukoudai not "kyukodai" so that's horribly mistitled. Delete as an obvious error. Sorry, closer, that's the last clear vote you're getting from me. {{pb}} 広大/ひろだい/hirodai is used to refer to Hiroshima University and Hirosaki[https://www.hirosaki-u.ac.jp/info/publication/hirodai/][https://www.publish.csiro.au/CH/CH21186][https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/60068005/articlejapan20190720-33616-zktxo5-libre.pdf?1563675535=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DA_Recall_of_Experience_Becoming_to_Had_B.pdf&Expires=1737620185&Signature=W2MNG3LtRa670LMNpPqoyybmNn3ROXPy~ZmvugAQV8bectkmQB52aPD3llSZshakAoC17oplYjsGuRzHpEtlgm90XZZcYKqFzdomeApK1AScP0UGwzfXEBzMmY6uTYLe9LUjVB~-YrGOE~LLqtPXNNfj7iEzxdDX5KDPiLjpCv37FBC8q6cu-OxeX4ywOFcGSFG8ZS2Z~5hp-92pfj6ziVGR56Lx2bacug4CPJcbqgScVe3ZVBB2D~dJWJELad1TOXVxXjbCZDpZhdfHVL-myKcgBlKAwrZNk~rqHJ7uZlPOSXqSQY8YX7e8dMF2jVBOP1LNOhg7UNuHlkhzNQjqyw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA][https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14620316.2007.11512236][https://www.lilpink.info/2015/10/japan-diaries-hiroshima-university.html][https://www.google.com/books/edition/Future_proof_CALL_language_learning_as_e/qRx-DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hirodai&pg=PA49&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chemical_Science_of_%CF%80_Electron_Systems/FNfjCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hirodai&pg=PA295&printsec=frontcover] in several English academic journals, websites, and books but the primary topic is doubtlessly the monotypic genus of parasites named for Hiroshima University.[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00222933.2023.2259556][https://www.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/en/ilife/news/80218]. Given the fact that this one actually is apparently used in English, keep? But the genus is the primary topic, undoubtedly, so keep and retitle to encourage creation? Or maybe delete, then when the next UPE gaming AP makes the genus page, add a hatnote? Or temporarily redirect to Hiroshima, because my sources seem to indicate that's the primary topic of the two(at least in English, probably in Japanese too) and add a hatnote to it instead? and then replace {{pb}} Fukudai is actually a dab page at jaWiki under a kanji :ja:福大, and two of the universities seems to actually use it in their English-language publishing [https://english.adb.fukushima-u.ac.jp/about/][https://edizionicafoscari.it/media/pdf/article/elle/2015/3/art-10.14277-2280-6792-ELLE-4-3-15-7.pdf] but also it has made its way over to English language publications as a fairly common species name, [https://www.gbif.org/en/species/11151547/treatments][https://www.gbif.org/species/11179400][https://www.gbif.org/en/species/1104028][https://www.gbif.org/en/species/1104029][https://uk.inaturalist.org/taxa/578645-Saturnia-jonasi-fukudai][https://www.gbif.org/species/1785422] presumably after one of the universities? (Anybody feel like finding some 1960s and 1970s Japanese entomology journals and finding out?) Also, it's mentioned (unsourced) at University of Fukui and Fukushima University. If a redirect was made from Fukudai to either of those, it would end up at RfD and the result would likely be disambiguate. So it's not unreasonable that somebody will be searching for the word "fukudai" in English, but at the same time, we can't list any of the species names.. but to make it even more complicated, I actually know the word Fukudai as a series of maths problems and methods for calculating determinants[https://ia902207.us.archive.org/20/items/historyofjapanes00smituoft/historyofjapanes00smituoft.pdf] pg 136, so it would probably be a valid redirect if we had an article on that method, which we should because it appears to pass the GNG in modern English-language sources, never mind earlier ones, but also it appears to be much more a partial match and therefore I give up and I regret doing a BEFORE because I am loosing my mind trying, and unfortunately succeeding in finding ways these might be useful. I'm probably going to end up with Oblivy on these. Also, RfDing any of these (except for the mistake and Nagadai bc I can't find that used in English in this context, and, believe me, I've looked) would doubtless result in a result to disambiguate. {{pb}} To the closer: I am sorry. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 08:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• :Do you have any evidence at all that these strings are related to short forms of university names. Is it not vastly more likely for example that "Hirodai" is pseudo-Latin for a person called Hiroda? And fukudai (副題) is an ordinary word meaning "subtopic". Imaginatorium (talk) 19:25, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::I mean, we're not a Japanese dictionary, so whether or not these are oridinary Japanese words or commonly used in Japanese isn't actually going to be a deciding factor. I'm looking for evidence that these words are used in English to refer to other the universities, or other topics. I've found that evidence for Fukudai, Hirodai, and Hokudai. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:22, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep after finding [https://english.adb.fukushima-u.ac.jp/about/ this] on googling "Fukudai" and [https://www.4icu.org/reviews/universities-urls/2441.shtm this] at "Aidai". Both seem enough to justify a redirect, and if there are multiple potential redirects from the same term then we need a dab page. I haven't checked all the others, but having found two out of two suggests that these are probably all valid dab pages. PamD 09:44, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• :Also Hirodai [https://www.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/en/capr/ta here] and [https://www.kokusai.hirosaki-u.ac.jp/en/studyabroad01/sa01_ambassador/ here]: both being used on English-language sites of the university itself. These aren't "non-notable nicknames" but are short forms used by the respective universities. These dab pages should be kept. PamD 09:51, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delete - not appropriate or needed for English-language Wikipedia. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep in most cases. I wouldn't agree that these are unlikely search terms in English. These abbreviations for universities show up fairly regularly in English translations of Japanese fiction - there are an awful lot of manga, anime and light novel stories set in high schools, so it's common for characters to talk about or visit universities. I'd go with Delete if there's no evidence that the abbreviation is correct (e.g. I'm not sure about one of the targets for Kyukodai as above), but otherwise it seems reasonable to have them as redirects or disambigs. Adam Sampson (talk) 13:12, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• Comment: The question (obviously) is: what are these redirects for? How will they be used? And a valid answer would be that in some cases a reader has come across the contracted name of a Japanese university and wants to know about it. That is the plus; what is the minus? Well, when the reader comes across, perhaps "Tōdai", it is a romanisation of 東大, the short form of 東京大学. But a real dictionary (大辞林) lists five words with the reading 'tōdai', the first and most obvious being lighthouse (灯台), and including 東大 as the last. And of course, this is likely to get mangled as todai, some sort of mediaeval tax on paddyfields. So it gives a totally wrong impression that anything in Japanese that ended up as the string "todai" (more or less) refers to a university. See my comment above on the supposed insect names etc above. It also seems odd to start talking about reading fiction: if a novel translated from Polish talks about a "Reading University", how likely is it that this is actually distinguished from a "Writing University". Fundamentally Japanese has so many homophones that this sort of redirect is not reliable. The short forms are used very commonly, but only in appropriate context. Imaginatorium (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• :{{tq|supposed insect names}} I take issue with "supposed" here, as it implies I made them up. I found scientific papers about these insects under those names. They have been used. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::Yes, of course the insect names are correct, but they fairly obviously have nothing to do with the contractions used for university names. What is your evidence of "Fukudai" being used in English to refer to the university? Imaginatorium (talk) 03:48, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::Oh, did you get access to the old Japanese entomology journals then? I'm assuming the insects were most likely named after people called Fukudai (Like V. fukudai is) or after one of the universities. But, if you found the answer to then I suppose we'd better move on to that evidence you requested. Here you go! [https://english.adb.fukushima-u.ac.jp/about/][https://edizionicafoscari.it/media/pdf/article/elle/2015/3/art-10.14277-2280-6792-ELLE-4-3-15-7.pdf][https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/ijmm.2018.3806?text=fulltext] GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 10:41, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep Its the equivalent of an acronym in English - it’s basically… ok, so imagine that there were several universities which all used the acronym UCLA. UCLA is not the actual name of any of them, it’s the acronym, but anyone searching for one of them using the acronym is going to be confused by the fact there are several all using the same acronym. It’s that. Anyone searching for Nagadai hoping to get information about Nagaoka University is going to be confused if they get information about Nagano University, or in fact Nagasaki University, which is the other university I definitely know uses Nagadai as a completely normal acronym (I went to the uni down the road, but did stuff there). Absurdum4242 (talk) 04:25, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• :*Comment: Would this be the equivalent of something like U of W? Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• :*:*Comment Yes! Dead on that. Good catch @Significa liberdade, it’s pretty much exactly the same as that, meaning if this page is deleted, really all those “U of W” type pages need deleted too. Absurdum4242 (talk) 09:32, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:::* Based on this I have some follow-up comments. "U of W" is an English abbreviation, which makes it appropriate for the English Wikipedia. Thus, I think the question is whether Japanese-language abbreviations are appropriate. To determine that, I think it's worth seeing if a) these abbreviations are used in English materials and b) if we have other disambiguation pages for non-English shortenings. Another consideration is that we often keep non-English redirects if they relate to the target page, which would be the case here. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:53, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment - Many of the articles linked to from these dab pages don't mention the term. Neither of the articles linked from Nagadai mentions the term. The same applies to Kyukodai. In others there is only one article linked to that mentions the dab term. Applying MOS:DABNOMENTION, Nagadai and Kyukodai would be eligible for WP:G14 deletion and others should be changed to redirects. --John B123 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• :*Comment: At present, we have DABs for references such as U of M. The first item is University of Maine, which does not mention U of M in the article. However, I would argue it makes sense to innumerable people that it would be called the U of M. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 23:00, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::: If University of Maine is referred to as U of M then this should be included in the article and suitably referenced. Its not our place here or the purpose of a dab page to speculate on what abbreviations or nicknames a university is referred to as however logical the reasoning is. This is why MOS:DABNOMENTION has been agreed by the community. That aside, it could be argued that U of M not complying with DABNOMENTION falls under WP:OTHERSTUFF. --John B123 (talk) 23:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Taking my example above Peking University doesn't include the term "beida" in its text (OK, in one of the citation article titles) even though it's unquestionably a prevalent nickname and possible search term. Beida is a redirect, where the guideline is a bit softer at "unlikely to be useful". {{pb}}I agree that MOS:DABMENTION supports your position but the alternative to deletion, to not sweep away all these disambig pages, would be to add the mention to each redirected article (perhaps with a little {{cn}} next to it). Except for Fukudai, which @GreenLipstickLesbian seems to have sorted out, cite-wise. Oblivy (talk) 02:27, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::: Surely WP:BURDEN prevents us from adding a mention with {{t|cn}} tag? Following some of the points made during this discussion I'm swaying towards changing my !vote. However for this to happen the pages need to comply with MOS:DAB. Whilst I have no reason to disbelieve anybody who knows a university is referred to by one of the terms, per WP:V this is not enough. Nor in my view is the name of a nearby bus stop or station sufficient evidence. They may well have been named in reference to the university, but may have been named after something else. I'm also concerned about partial matches, for example Hokudai lists Tohoku University but the article gives Tohokudai as its colloquial name. --John B123 (talk) 10:29, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
• Keep: per PamD. Thanks. -Mushy Yank. 12:41, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Organizations and Education. -Mushy Yank. 12:43, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:46, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Based on the discussion here it would appear that the critical question is whether the Japanese abbreviations are used at all in English: this question has yet to be answered substantively.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:43, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

• Keep. This format is a legitimate rendering of common Japanese short forms in English and therefore valid DABS. For example for Fukudai, it is trivially easy to find usages in English by the listed universities in official communications on their websites: [https://www.kokusai.fukuoka-u.ac.jp/en/inbound/ Fukuoka], [https://english.adb.fukushima-u.ac.jp/about/ Fukushima], [https://www.fukuyama-u.ac.jp/magazine/ Fukuyama], [https://www.gcs.u-fukui.ac.jp/gcm/eng/about/message.html Fukui]. This is already basically a WP:TRAINWRECK and individual nominations should be made where a proper WP:BEFORE indicates serious issues (e.g. as some have indicated with Kyukodai). These could probably be added to the lead (perhaps via second use of {{t|Nihongo}} specifically for the nickname?) -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 07:45, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
• Delete - Not appropriate or necessary on the English Wikipedia. As both pages listed have 長 as the first kanji, Nagadai would render as 長大 in the original Japanese. It would be more appropriate for the Japanese Wikipedia. Z. Patterson (talk) 03:02, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.