Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of Northern Cyprus

:{{la|Outline of Northern Cyprus}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Outline of Northern Cyprus}})

Suggest deleting the article Outline of Northern Cyprus and merging the content to Northern Cyprus, Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey since a separate article seems unnecessary. There is unnecessary duplication of content and significant overlap.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 17:22, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

:Like I said on the talk page, I disagree. Outlines offer a different take to articles as a type of list. I dont see any overlap and think it should stay - HIGHFIELDS (TALK • CONTRIBUTIONS) 20:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

::May I draw your attention to the overlap in the lengthy introduction but also between the Outline of Cyprus as well as the Outline of Northern Cyprus. For example, Television in Northern Cyprus redirects to Television in Cyprus, i.e. Television in the Republic of Cyprus, and Freedom of religion in Northern Cyprus is redirected to Freedom of Religion in Cyprus (and notably in this case, freedom of religion is not comparable between Northern Cyprus and the Republic of Cyprus, nor does it say so anywhere). There is also overlap with the ISO codes since these are the ISO codes of the Republic of Cyprus and there are no recognised ISO codes for Northern Cyprus (they just use the Republic of Cyprus ISO codes) and ditto for the Internet domain naming standards. There is even a Rail transport in Northern Cyprus article when there is no rail transport in Northern Cyprus. Cuisine of Northern Cyprus redirects to Cuisine of Cyprus i.e. Republic of Cyprus. There is also content that can be integrated with Outline of Turkey such as military content since the occupation force is the military of Turkey. It is a desperate Outline held together with the minimum of original or worthwhile content. If there are good reasons for keeping the Outline of an occupied territory I am all ears.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 12:01, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:::Well, there may well be a case for duplication with them other outlines, although I'd still advocate keeping this. When I commented, you were only suggesting a merge to, and overlap with, the article itself. - HIGHFIELDS (TALK • CONTRIBUTIONS) 14:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment it's an WP:OUTLINE. The always cover the same territory as the article. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Outlines should all be moved out of Articlespace, into Portalspace or Bookspace. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep Unless Nipsonanomhmata wants to start a general proposal to delete all outline articles, there's no reason to delete this one. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:53, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:: It is not necessary to delete all Outline articles. However, there is a great deal of duplicate content and one Outline of Cyprus could include a subsection for content specific to the occupied territory. After all the Outline of Cyprus article is not called Outline of the Republic of Cyprus and it appears excessive to have an Outline of Northern Cyprus. Similarly, all military-specific content overlaps with Outline of Turkey since it is the military of the Republic of Turkey.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 12:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:::Outline of Cyprus has just as much duplication with Cyprus, Outline of Turkey has just as much duplication with Turkey. Besides, as Cyprus is not at Republic of Cyprus your naming argument is pointless. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

::::But Outline of Northern Cyprus has duplication within Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey too. In fact, Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey could take up all the slack (of duplication) and there is no need for a seperate Outline of Northern Cyprus article.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk)

:::::There's as much duplication there as there is Outline of Europe has with Outline of Cyprus. It's standard for every country to have a separate outline, no matter how recognised they are. This request has no basis, and the Outline of Northern Cyprus is not the same as Outline of Cyprus or Outline of Turkey, as it has articles relating to Northern Cyprus, not just Cyprus of Turkey. Districts of Northern Cyprus, List of cities in Northern Cyprus, President of Northern Cyprus, etc. should not appear on either Outline of Cyprus or Outline of Turkey. I'm not continuing this line of conversation any longer. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::Why shouldn't Districts of Northern Cyprus and List of cities in Northern Cyprus be listed in Outline of Cyprus? Outline of Cyprus is not Outline of the Republic of Cyprus. Why can't President of Northern Cyprus be listed in Outline of Turkey when only Turkey recognises the President of Northern Cyprus? I don't think that your comparison of Outline of Europe with Outline of Cyprus is comparable. Moreover, Northern Cyprus is not a country. It is an occupied territory that only the Republic of Turkey recognises as a country. Yet again, it is not comparable.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 17:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Saying that it is an occupied territory and not a country (or vice versa) is a political viewpoint, not a viable rationale for deletion. Outlines for disputed territories such as Abhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and the Palestinian territories are common. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::::None of the territories that you have mentioned are comparable to Northern Cyprus. Not one because the majority populations of Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Palestine (which was until the mid-20th Century a fully-recognised country) were already there. Whilst in the case of Northern Cyprus colonists from the Turkish mainland now outnumber the population that was there before 1974 (and the permanently stationed Turkish army is itself a major contributor to that fact).  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 00:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Keep: There is no duplication, period. Northern Cyprus is a distinct entity - whether legitimately so or not - and thus requires its own outline in keeping with our practice of featuring outlines for countries as well as disputed territories. Examples of this abound: Abhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and the Palestinian territories are just the first few I found. The absence of this outline, juxtaposed with the continued presence of similar outlines for disputed territories, would be decidedly not neutral. That some of the links redirect is not a justification for this article's deletion but rather a reason for those articles' creation. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

::Tendentious argument involving the extension of the fiction section of the Wikipedia library. The argument suggests that overlap is satisfactory until it is replaced with almost identical articles that replace the words "Republic of Cyprus" and/or "Republic of Turkey" with "Northern Cyprus". Bit difficult replacing "Turkish army" and "Turkish colonists" though. But ofcourse, with the passage of time, they too will be called Cypriots. Not comparing like with like with Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Palestine since their populations weren't shipped in (their majority populations were already there) and in fact, Palestine used to exist as a country before it became disputed. Not comparable with the minority of muslim Cypriots which, with the passage of time, became known as Turkish Cypriots in the early part of the 20th Century. And ofcourse the size of that population has been fattened with colonists from the Turkish mainland. Some of which were not voluntary colonists. Some were forced to relocate to Cyprus (Kurds as noted by various Human Rights organisations). "No duplication" is a non-argument.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 00:10, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

:::You appear to be arguing about the validity of the entity of Northern Cyprus rather than the validity of this article. Maybe it would be advisable to return to the subject at hand - HIGHFIELDS (TALK • CONTRIBUTIONS) 12:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

::::Just responded to the issues raised by Hemlock. However, you are right in that we are both off the subject at hand. It cannot be argued that there is "no duplication, period" since the majority of the outline comprises duplication of one kind or another.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:51, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Strong, speedy keep, without considering its international status, Northern Cyprus is a sovereign state, no need to deny it. If it is sovereign, it has something to outline, just like Somaliland. Actually, there is no need to have a discussion in this series of biased AfDs. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 08:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

::Quoting Highfields "You appear to be arguing about the validity of the entity of Northern Cyprus rather than the validity of this article. Maybe it would be advisable to return to the subject at hand."  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 09:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

:::Yes, this is all about denying the existence of a TRNC which exists. And if we return at the subject, it is still the same as Somaliland, and it is not a duplication. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 10:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

::::No, this is about the unnecessary duplication of content and significant overlap in Outline of Northern Cyprus which can be easily represented in Outline of Cyprus (there is no Outline for the Republic of Cyprus), and Outline of Turkey (and is already represented in those outlines). Moreover, it is represented separately in Northern Cyprus.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 11:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::Then, we should merge Northern Cyprus in Cyprus. That is actually another issue, and as you have said, the articles of Cyprus and Outline of Cyprus should be renamed as Republic of Cyprus and Outline of the Republic of Cyprus. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 13:31, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::Focussing on one thing at a time. The content of Outline of Northern Cyprus can easily be represented by Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey because there is no original content. Outline of Northern Cyprus is redundant. And there is no conflict in the name Outline of Cyprus (because it is not called Outline of the Republic of Cyprus).  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 16:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cyprus-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Speedy Keep - this is a disruptive and pointless nom. Outback the koala (talk) 19:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

: How is this a disruptive and pointless nom? Outline of Northern Cyprus is pointless when the content is unoriginal duplicate, repeated, and in some cases plagiarised. Is there any reasonable reason why the content cannot be distributed between Outline of Cyprus (when there is no Outline of the Republic of Cyprus) and Outline of Turkey?  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 19:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

::Cyprus is the short name for the RoC officially and is used throughout the english speaking world as such. What's next Taiwan? Because we already have an Outline of China (PRC) ???? This is an unbelieveable argument. Do you expect anyone to buy this? Outback the koala (talk) 19:33, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

:::So your argument is that Outline of Cyprus is exactly the same as having Outline of the Republic of Cyprus. So, why is it not reasonable to share the content of Outline of Northern Cyprus between Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey? Just in case you missed reading the above I'll repeat it again (since Wikipedia, at least in this case, appears to be mirroring content in this Outline). "Television in Northern Cyprus redirects to Television in Cyprus, i.e. Television in the Republic of Cyprus, and Freedom of religion in Northern Cyprus is redirected to Freedom of Religion in Cyprus (and notably in this case, freedom of religion is not comparable between Northern Cyprus and the Republic of Cyprus, nor does it say so anywhere). There is also overlap with the ISO codes since these are the ISO codes of the Republic of Cyprus and there are no recognised ISO codes for Northern Cyprus (they just use the Republic of Cyprus ISO codes) and ditto for the Internet domain naming standards. There is even a Rail transport in Northern Cyprus article when there is no rail transport in Northern Cyprus. Cuisine of Northern Cyprus redirects to Cuisine of Cyprus i.e. Republic of Cyprus. There is also content that can be integrated with Outline of Turkey such as military content since the occupation force is the military of Turkey. It is a desperate Outline held together with the minimum of original or worthwhile content." btw Taiwan is not comparable. Nor is Palestine, Nagorno-Karabakh, or Abkhazia.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 20:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

::::I just wanted to that there are no Turkish/Greek Cypriot cuisine separately, there is mainly one Cypriot cuisine. And the redirect of Television in Northern Cyprus is wrong, that article needs to be created. And what do you mean by ISO codes? The TRNC uses the internet domain name .nc.tr, or sometimes .tr, and sometimes there are no counry domains at all, but because the country is unrecognized, it is nonsense to expect a separate ISO code or internet domain name. And the Outline of Turkey has no relationship with this, unless you want to delete all Northern Cyprus articles. Taiwan, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia etc. are comparable, they are in the exactlysame status. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 09:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::I am amazed that all the Turkish colonists know Cypriot cuisine. That's impressive. Yes, the redirect of television in Northern Cyprus is wrong. Many of the channels of the Republic of Cyprus are available but so are many channels of the Republic of Turkey too. ISO codes are the International Standards Organisation codes. Thank you for confirming that Northern Cyprus uses Republic of Turkey Internet domain names (there are always domains whether they be Turkish, .com, or some other flavor of the month domain extension but there are no dedicated Northern Cyprus domain names, .nc.tr is a subset of the Turkish domain name). The other entities that you have mentioned are not comparable with Northern Cyprus. Not one of those has the majority of their land and property owned by displaced Cypriots, not one of those has the majority of their land and property owned by anybody else that has been displaced. Not comparable to the nth degree. Have started a new article for Freedom of religion in Northern Cyprus because somebody has to.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 11:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Are you sure that no Georgian owns land in Abkhazia? And neither any Azeri owns land in Nagorno-Karabakh? Do you expect anyone to believe this? And I am amazed all Greeks (if you prefer, colonists) coming from Greece know Cypriot cuisine, it is the same thing. And yes, most of them are quite integrated in Cypriot culture, they speak some kind of Gibrizlidja and eat Cypriot food. I know what ISO means, but there are so many ISO codes that I cannot distinguish which one you mean before you say it. Yes, Northern Cyprus does not have an internet domain name on its own, but neither does Abkhazia and Nagorno-Karabakh. And actually it is quite usual for an unrecognized country to not to have these. They are barely comparable. And if we return to the subject, Northern Cyprus has a president, a government and administrative divisions for example, and they do not belong to Turkey of the Republic of Cyprus. They belong to Northern Cyprus, so they should be placed in the Outline of Northern Cyprus. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

{{od}}All of the issues that you have raised in the last couple of paragraphs are off-topic and tendentious (and some fictitious). Yes, I am 100% certain that the occupied territory called Northern Cyprus is an exceptional case and no other territory that you have cited is in a similar situation where the majority of the property and land is owned by the displaced. Greek colonists were not sent to Cyprus from Greece to fill an empty gap (as per Republic of Turkey) and certainly no ethnic minorities were forced to relocate to Cyprus (as Kurds were forced to relocate to Cyprus by the Republic of Turkey, and they had no choice). The President and government of Northern Cyprus are only recognised by the Republic of Turkey. To the rest of the world it is an administration of a militarily occupied territory. The subject that you are having difficulty discussing is whether or not the content of Outline of Northern Cyprus could just as easily be contained within Northern Cyprus, Outline of Cyprus, and Outline of Turkey. There is no content in Outline of Northern Cyprus that cannot be relocated. Even the new article called Freedom of religion in Northern Cyprus, which I created during this discussion, could be relocated to Outline of Turkey since it concerns the administration of a military occupation by the Republic of Turkey. Listing anything to do with the Turkish military in an outline called Outline of Northern Cyprus is redundant. Is it not enough to list it in Outline of Turkey and why do links about the Turkish military also need to be listed in an outline called Outline of Northern Cyprus?  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 16:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

:And this AfD itself is barely tendentious. There is a sovereign state called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, it does not matter how you call it and try to promote it, and it deserves an outline like any other unrecognized country, unless you try to promote the ideas of Greece and Republic of Cyprus. I cannot believe that we are discussing the notability of this state. That is why I voted speedy keep. --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 16:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

::We are not discussing the notability of Northern Cyprus (you are doing that all by yourself). We are supposed to be discussing whether or not the content of Outline of Northern Cyprus could not just as easily be part of Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey (and merging the duplicate content of Outline of Northern Cyprus to Northern Cyprus) since there is no original content that cannot be listed there.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 17:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

:::*Speedy Keep and wikipedia doesn't deal with legitimacy issues, but notability ones.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 06:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::We are not discussing legitimacy issues either. This separate Outline links to content that could easily be linked from Outline of Cyprus and Outline of Turkey and you wouldn't know the difference.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:12, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

::::::They could not because Northern Cyprus has a different president, prime minister, different ministers, political parties, international relations, and a different government. Is Derviş Eroğlu the president of Turkey or the Republic of Cyprus? --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 15:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.