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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pennsylvania Dental College

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery and University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine, the page itself surviving as a disambiguation page. The original stub's content can be retrieved from the page history. Deryck C. 17:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

=[[Pennsylvania Dental College]]=

:{{la|Pennsylvania Dental College}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Pennsylvania Dental College}})

The only source for this article is an 1881 New York Times blurb that mentions the college's graduating class numbers. I can't find any other info about it, or even in what city the college was located. Angryapathy (talk) 15:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Weak Delete Sources seem very few in number and the college appears to have been defunct for some time. Besides the NYT note, all I could find was one curious book mention that says Doc Holliday attended the college. It raises the point of what sourcing is required for an institution that hasn't been around for a hundred years. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

:*A couple of questions. Isn't our leaning, with colleges, to keep them if they are verifiable? Perhaps one could argue that where there is a paucity of RS coverage that redirect or merge would be better, but still .. is not delete perhaps outside the scope of our usual approach? As to the fact that the school is defunct, I'm not sure that that hurts any argument for notability -- we don't seem to count that against the subject when the subject is a (dead) person, or a no-longer-populated town.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

::I would tend to agree with you if there was just more information in the sources. I would totally be OK if the one single source had some background information. I guess it comes down to this line of thinking (for me): How is it helpful for an encyclopedia to have an article stating that a dental college existed, but with no information about its whereabouts or why it went defunct? Angryapathy (talk) 18:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

:::I hear your point, and understand it. But -- if our leaning is to keep such colleges if they are verifiable, I'm happy to stick with the consensus. On the other hand, if the leaning were to only keep it if we had something more than verifiability, on the basis of your point, I woiuld be happy to stick with that consensus. I think it turns on what the general consensus is on this point, for me at least -- as I find both of them reasonable. And -- though it is not my point -- I could imagine another editors saying: "Well, over time people could add info, as it becomes available, presuming it becomes available ..." My bottom line is that if there is indeed a consensus to keep articles on colleges if they are verifiable -- without more -- then for me that would close the issue, absent an overturning of the consensus. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

::::We initially presume that such articles are likely to be kept, because they usually are. But it's a default or a rule of thumb, not an absolute rule. If a thorough, good-faith search indicates that there aren't really enough sources to write a decent article, then we delete them. (In this particular instance, I believe that a merge is the right answer.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery. The only source provided refers to the college by the longer name, and we already have an article about that college. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I support Metropolitan's recommendation to redirect, if we are sure that they are the same institution. It seems likely, since they are given roughly the same founding date (1856 or 1857). --MelanieN (talk) 21:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Merge ... all appropriate RS-supported material from this article, as well as Metro's suggested target article, to University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine -- into which the school was merged in fact.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't support merging either of those articles into University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine, because Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery existed independently from the University of Pennsylvania dental school for over 50 years before the merger. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Hi Met. I had in mind rationale # 3 for merging, under Wikipedia:Merging, which states
    "There are several good reasons to merge a page ... Text: If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic."
    Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery's article is 6 years old, and 2 sentences long. And, coincidentally, relies for its ref on a url of the target I suggest -- the University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine. Into which it merged over a century ago. IMHO, the shoe seems to fit. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of -related deletion discussions.

  • Comment I've [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dentistry&diff=prev&oldid=471661560 notified WP:DENTISTRY], with the hope that we can have confirmation (or otherwise) that the two places are one and the same. -- Trevj (talk) 11:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment - I'm very leery of deleting post-primary educational institutions, including those of a historic rather than a contemporary nature. That said, there needs to be some sort of verifiability demonstrated, in my view — in the sense that there should be a location identified and some sort of establishment and disestablishment dates. This is a good example of where a RESCUE SQUAD flag would come in handy, for what it's worth. Carrite (talk) 00:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Merge to Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery per Metro90. That looks to me like a hit, failing any additional information about a "Pennsylvania Dental College" operating at the same time in competition. Carrite (talk) 00:07, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Check Google Books to see what you can find out about this page. There may be past literature that talks extensively about the subject. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
  • In fact, on Google Books there are pages of hits for "Pennsylvania Dental College" WhisperToMe (talk) 20:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment - The college seems to be mentioned in a directory here [http://www2.westminster-mo.edu/wc_users/homepages/staff/brownr/PennsylvaniaCC.htm], but I can't find how to access the book referenced there. Will change to keep if this book can be verified. A412 (Talk * C) 23:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Merge to Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery, which was the same institution, and lasted for over 50 years. This is verified by sources discussing Doc Holliday who use one or the other variation of the school's name. Its also clear that there were only two dental schools in Philadelphia prior to UPenn's founding of its school in 1878, which also confirms that Pennsylvania Dental College and Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery are one and the same. See [http://books.google.com/books?id=svr39oWQq2MC&pg=PA106&dq=Pennsylvania+Dental+College+holliday&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GA0gT96EG8m60AHd_MQG&ved=0CH8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Pennsylvania%20Dental%20College%20holliday&f=false];[http://books.google.com/books?id=wuyCD_8cs4cC&pg=PA199&dq=Pennsylvania+Dental+College+holliday&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GA0gT96EG8m60AHd_MQG&ved=0CHoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Pennsylvania%20Dental%20College%20holliday&f=false] (listing the two different schools that existed in 1872). This institution did not merge into UPenn's dental school until 1909. (Note: the Philadelphia Dental College was the competitor school--it later merged into Temple)--Milowent • hasspoken 14:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

::Addition: I have expanded the Pennsylvania College of Dental Surgery article somewhat and located many good sources about it, I would suggest this AfD can be closed as a merge (or redirect, as this article the AfD is on has no substantial content).--Milowent • hasspoken 15:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.