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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pilgrim Cemetery

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was userfy for now. When it is ready to be moved back to article space the title can be corrected. If you need help with that move I or any other admin can assist, or you can file at WP:RM. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

=[[Pilgrim Cemetery]]=

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:{{la|Pilgrim Cemetery}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Pilgrim Cemetery}})

Small cemetery in Texas. Nearly all of the references I found are obituaries of people buried there, nothing non-trivial about the cemetery itself, and nothing that warrants more than a merger with Elkhart, Texas. The references included in the article are, for the most part, about the church nearby. Delete. Userfy/move.  Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 04:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment. The cemetery is located at {{coords|31|35|24.9972|N|95|35|20.9976|W}}. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 04:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
  • DeleteMove. I also searched for references and came up empty-handed. It doesn't seem to be notable in its own right. Also, after the basic info about the cemetary, the article is just a list of people that were buried there, which fails WP:DIRECTORY. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 07:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
  • TexanFamilyGunnels's evidence is convincing, but the notable entity here is the church, not the cemetery. I think the article should be moved to Pilgrim Church or similar. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 21:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Mr. Stradivarius, I do agree to change the name and focus more toward the church but the cemetery is important in someways. I did some research and see how other Wikipedia pages referrenced the cemetery, by just showing the head stones. I believe that would address your issues as well as providing information about the site. This would be a work in progress type of thing. I have two questions; how do you get a site that uses the words Pilgrim Cemetery to redirect to this page when it applies and how can I change the name or move information under a different name? Thanks for your feedback, Paul Gunnels 00:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)
  • Keep, I know this place was and is a very significant place in Texas History. Several Wikipedia pages referrence Pilgrim in regards to this place, but no where else can someone learn about it on WikiPedia. I wished I would have named this page Old Pilgrim Church and Cememtery, because that is really what it is. Please review these Wikipedia pages for Pilgrim Church; Baptist General Convention of Texas, Daniel Parker, James W. Parker, and Fort Parker massacre. Each of these has ties to Pligrim Cemetery in many different ways. Reveiw the book Frontier Blood [http://books.google.com/books?id=PtqghbfsrPAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=frontier+blood&source=bl&ots=bQl6TkywuO&sig=GCYyd3AVlzIOSoHd7zTru3eXCxc&hl=en&ei=q6i1Tc7QDtGhtwe5krjqDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false], In this book search for Pilgrim Church and Pilgrim Regular Predestinarian Baptish Church and it will provide some more insight to this place. I have listed more referrences below for you to review for factual information about this place. I would ask you consider not deleting this because this place is referred to in many different types of published literature. Currently there is nothing to show this place in Wikipedia, but putting it under the Elkhart, Texas page, does not give its on idenity, which it deserves. I know that because of the brave actions of these families leaving Clark County, Illinois in the early 1800's and traveling to Texas to establish the first non-cathloic church which was against Mexican law is plent of reasons for Wikipedia to allow this referrence page. Their brave actions would play signficatant influence in the development of Texas, which would orgionally center on the Pilgrim Churchlocation. If you researched all of the orgional families that came to this location you would see that this place had a major impact on Texas. This place is very significant to them because it was the first place where they begin to establish other communities in Texas and would play major roles in many other areas of Texas from here. I believe and know this is a great place, because I am from Elkhart, Texas. I am also kin to the majority of folks buried in Pilgrim Cemetery, on the land of the orgional church site was established in 1833. I do see some of your points but I don't believe you may see the importance of this place, I understand being a cemetery only may not meet all of Wikipedia standards, but it is also the orginal site of the first non-catholic church in Texas. I do plan to continue to work to develop this website and move it forward to reflecting its historical value. If possible, I would like to change the name to Old Pilgrim Church and Cemetery. Please review the links below, and thanks for your consideration in not deleting this site. Have a great day, Paul
  • Thanks, to all whom offered or assisted in helping this become an established Wikipedia web page. I do believe that the suggestions that were offered all have merit and I will make sure they are included to some degree. Thanks for your time. Paul Gunnels 14:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)

Paul Gunnels 18:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)

  • Comment. User:TexanFamilyGunnels has made some valid points here. The Handbook of Texas Online has an article entitled "Pilgrim Primitive Baptist Church", which backs up the assertion that this was the first Baptist church in Texas, and in my view that makes the church's notability pretty clear.[http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/ccp05] Maybe userfication would be in order to allow TexanFamilyGunnels to rename and shift the article's focus as suggested. --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks User:Arxiloxos comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)
  • Userfy- Per above; request reformatting of findagrave to standardized *{{findagrave|214657}} (White section) and add *{{findagrave|2319689}} (Black section) & include separation info where establishment date/year is discussed. (Note that the reference is separated this way, as the sections were separate; include legal requirement reference if found (check similar period Texas cemeteries.) Dru of Id (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks Dru of Id, for your feedback and I see your points here. The first person buried here was Rachel Parker Bennet, in 1844 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=parker&GSiman=1&GScid=214657&GRid=11974821& which made it a family cemetery. This cemetery started out as a family cemetery and at some point non-family members begin to be buried here, but I am not sure of the date that started, it would have to be researched. I did research the black section per Find A Graveand discovered that a child named, Hugh L. Jackson, was buried there in 1905 [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSsr=41&GScid=2319689&GRid=63162273&], and the records show that ten individuals with the last name Jackson have been buried there, the last one in 2008. I believe all sections should be added to allow any family no matter who they are to research their familys history. One thing to note here is the fact that most family areas are by name and there are very few spots vacant in the older sections, meaning that most families have purchased complete rows for their families. The newer part of the cemetery accross the street has spots but it even has limited areas available. Having this web page up can allow people to research it and place the facts about it, in one central location. If having Find A Grave.Com on this sight as a referrence has some type of legal issue, then that is very simple, it won't be on it. I do believe this web page on Widipedia would be good today for people find and learn about it, but as more information is added with the information being refined, will help future researchers in finding the facts of its history. One thing I point out is that, as older generations pass away, more common verbal knowledge (information) is lost about any historical situation or site. That is why I believe it is important to capture history today and refuse to put it off until tomorrow. Thanks again for your feedback. Paul Gunnels 00:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)
  • Findagrave is not only permissable, it's been 'templated' to standardize the display as much as possible (it mimics the article title - see where I added it to Daniel Parker earlier); we have it in most bios of deceased politicians and celebrities, and information visible in/on markers, etc. can be cited. Dru of Id (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks Again, Dru of Id, I get it Findagrave not permissable on Wikipedia, but can be cited such as findagrave. Paul Gunnels 00:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)
  • Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear; copying the {}'d items above will display all data in the standardized format, linking to the findagrave.com entry and supplying the [article]. Dru of Id (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Userfy in the hope of moving, merging, or keeping. It appears to be a notable church and churchyard. Bearian (talk) 03:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Bearian, for your feedback it is nice to see #687 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bearian] most prolific Wikipedians here offering your advise on this Wikipedia web page.Paul Gunnels 04:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexanFamilyGunnels (talk • contribs)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.