Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Screaming Banshee Aircrew

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:({{Find sources|Screaming Banshee Aircrew}})

Fails notability according to Wikipedia's criterion on music Paul S (talk) 16:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - This band has made notable contributions to alternative music in both Yorkshire and England as a whole. They have been featured in mainstream and alternative press (Terrorizer, Metal Hammer, Dominion Magazine) and online sites not originating from the band itself, including at least 3 books (Worldwide Gothic, Music To Die For, The Dead Travel Fast) and coverage in NME online and the Guardian/Observer. The band secured a three album recording contract in London with a well established record label (Resurrection Records) and have worldwide distribution including product in high-street retail outlets such as Virgin Records. The band also have well documented direct links with notable bands of from around the world, including the March Violets, Wayne Hussey (The Mission), The Birthday Massacre, Bella Morte, The Last Dance, Gene Loves Jezebel, Chameleons Vox. All of the above make the Screaming Banshee Aircrew a band of notable interest to anyone researching alternative music in the UK or the links between notable post-punk, Goth or alternative bands. All of the above is easily verifiable from the entry and a simple google search will easily back up these assertions. While an edit to remove dead links, empty wiki entries or unnecessary material may be called for, this article should not qualify for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddilefey (talk • contribs) 01:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Screaming Banshee Aircrew easily match the general guidelines for notability (no idea on what grounds PaulS has nominated this band? Just as a reminder, the following are the criteria from the notability page, which SBA match: "Significant coverage"; "Reliable"; "Sources"; "Independent of the subject"; "Presumed" Additionally, the band indisputably matches the following from the Notability (music) criteria list (they only need to fulfill one of the requirements):

- Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries except for the following:

- Has released two or more albums on a major label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are notable).

- Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

There are other criteria which it could be argued that SBA fulfill, but these are the ones about which there should be no doubt. sheridan (talk) 07:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Screaming Banshee Aircrew This band page meets more than one of Wikipedia's criterion on music. As follows: 1) Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself. (see citation 26 for Metal Hammer magazine, citation 27 for Music To Die For by Mick Mercer on Cherry Red Books, citation 31 The NME, citation 33 Dominion/Terrorizer Magazine and citation 35 "Worldwide Gothic". Independent Music Press) 2) Has released three albums on an independent label with a history of more than a few years (see references to Resurrection Records) 3) Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles. (see references to bassist/violinist Jo Violet of the March Violets) 4) Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability. (see references to Yorkshire's goth scene) 5) Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. (see references to airplay on TotalRock Radio and URY Radio)Gothtart (talk) 09:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Screaming Banshee Aircrew - This band certainly merit inclusion as a one time active part of UK Goth scene. Paul S has failed to give any justification for removal beyond a scathing dismissal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lostmarbles (talk • contribs) 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC) — Lostmarbles (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• DELETE - So far, none of these objections are valid. "been featured in mainstream and alternative press" - which of Terrorizer, Metal Hammer and Dominion Magazine can be accurately described as "mainstream"? Similarly the three books cited (Worldwide Gothic, Music To Die For, The Dead Travel Fast) are all published by minor specialist music publishers and written by goth scene insiders. The only mainstream coverage has been essentially trivial as defined under WP:BAND. Resurrection Records is a very minor label, not a major or important indie as defined in WP:BAND. The "direct links", whatever they may be, are unimportant unless they fall within the heads defining notability. I do not believe that goth has ever been the "most prominent of the local scene" in York between 2001 and 2010. The criterion requiring notable musicians requires two or more otherwise notable; even if Jo Violet were notable (she isn't; she played bass for the re-formed March Violets only after leaving SBA, not in the heyday of the former) that would not satisfy the criterion. I do not see any notability for the band at all, we are simply getting stuck in fandom within a local subculture. Paul S (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Notable as per above comments. Paul S - the above magazines are mainstram publications in that they are widely available in high street newsagents, and have circulation roughly comparable to the likes of the NME (as per their Wikipedia pages) - it's not necessary that they cover music considered to be popular mainstream. MisterVodka (talk) 11:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Just to clarify: Metal Hammer, Terrorizer (magazine) and Dominion are all available in high street newsagents and supermarkets etc therefore can be considered mainstream publications. Additionally, the books mentioned are all professionally published with ISBN numbers and are available in high street bookshops so cannot be considered trivial - one of which was written by renowned journalist Mick Mercer. Resurrection Records was one of the three main gothic music labels in the UK in the 1990s and 2000s (alongside Grave News and Nightbreed Recordings) - all these labels had distribution across Europe and the US, thus fulfilling the criteria of being an important indie label for the Goth_subculture (please refer to Resurrection's biggest-selling artist Inkubus_Sukkubus). Jo Violet is a fully listed and permanent member of the newly reformed The March Violets and has writing credits on their forthcoming album http://www.myspace.com/officialmarchviolets. Also, none of the arguments to "keep" have mentioned the local scene of York but refer to the local scene of the county of Yorkshire of which goth has been an extremely important music and subcultural movement. Please refer to the Yorkshire-originating The Sisters of Mercy, The_Mission_(band), The Cult, The March Violets, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry and Whitby Gothic Weekend - all were active, relevant and important in the period between 2001 and 2010, which is up for discussion here. SBA performed at Whitby Gothic Weekend three times and have additionally supported The March Violets, The Mission (band) and Red Lorry Yellow Lorry therefore meet the criteria outlined above. PaulS - please would you validate your assertions. Gothtart (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

::Metal Hammer has a circulation of ~35,000 and Terrorizer ~12,000 which are typical figures for a hobby magazine in the UK/ROI - about the same as The Railway Magazine or White Dwarf. When you say Mick Mercer is a "renowned journalist" we are getting to the heart of the problem, because he is renowned if you are a goth, but otherwise he is unknown to anyone without a particular interest in the history of the music press vis-à-vis punk rock. Ditto Resurrection Records; if you are part of the goth scene you have probably heard of them, but they are certainly not a major label or even a significant indie label; the only band on their list a member of the general public might have ever heard of is Inkubus Sukkubus and Resurrection only re-issue their albums. When you say that you can buy Music to Die For in a bookshop, no doubt you can if you order it, because bookshops sell books, but it won't be sitting on the shelf - I looked. Regarding Yorkshire you have cited a lot of bands from the mid 80s and besides SBA being 20 years too late for this scene, they are all Leeds bands apart from The Cult (Bradford - next door to Leeds) and not scattered all over Yorkshire as you suggest. This is relevant when we remember SBA are from York and not Leeds: WP:BAND says "local scene of a city" (my italics). As for Whitby Goth Weekend, here are ten other bands who've also played there - how many could be said to be notable: Angels of Liberty, Cauda Pavonis, The Faces of Sarah, Faithful Dawn, Manuskript, The Marionettes, These Crimson Dreams, Torsohorse, Trauma Pet, Violet Times. Paul S (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

:::: At the time SBA were written about in Metal Hammer, the magazine had a circulation of more than 56,000http://www.futureplc.com/2006/08/17/magazine-abcs-classic-rock-and-metal-hammer-post-double-digit-abc-growth/. The NME's most recent circulation was just under 24,000http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/1145894/", which is lower than Metal Hammer's current circulation but I notice that you don't regard this as a "hobby magazine" so your views are inconsistent - SBA have been written about in both publications as well as The Observer newspaper on 27 May 2007(circulation then, just over 500k)http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/table/0,,2079382,00.html. The print article can still be accessed http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/may/27/popandrock.features along with an additional online piece from the Guardian's website http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2007/may/27/post40. Being featured in these publications alone fulfills wikipedia's criteria. Mick Mercer originally wrote for the Melody Maker, which was a general music magazine and not a specialist publication, incidentally there were copies of Music To Die For on the shelves of my local Waterstones and Foyles this afternoon because I looked too. I might also add that as goth is considered a relevant contemporary subculture and part of your discussion revolves around SBA only being relevant to goths, by default this would make SBA a relevant band given their prevalence in the goth scene. I'm uncertain where you are getting your information from about Inkubus Sukkubus but their albums have been released, not re-issued, by Resurrection Records (with the exception of 'Wytches') although I feel this diverts the discussion which is about Screaming Banshee Aircrew and not their former labelmates. Gothtart (talk) 22:17, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

:::::I managed to buy my cope of Music to Die For from a branch of Waterstones, without having to order in. It was quite a small, provinicial branch as well... sheridan (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::::::No: re-read. It [http://www.futureplc.com/2006/08/17/magazine-abcs-classic-rock-and-metal-hammer-post-double-digit-abc-growth/ says] Classic Rock's circulation was 56,000, with Hammer at only 45,000. I read [http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/may/27/popandrock.features Ed Vulliamy's article] when it was published, and suspected this was what you were referring to and yes, it mentions going to see them, but it is surely not non-trivial coverage since it mentions in total twelve or thirteen bands, some notable some not; SBA are not the subject of the article. The online piece is a shorter reprint of the same article. Paul S (talk) 15:53, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

::::::[http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/freakscene-the-screaming-banshee-aircrew-make-some-noise Here] is the NME piece. I leave it to those better qualified to judge whether or not this is sufficient to make SBA notable. Paul S (talk) 16:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP - Any argument that Metal Hammer and Terrorizer magazines are fanzines is just ridiculous. On top of coverage in these mainstream publications, SBA have had links from the Guardian website and a paragraph dedicated to them in an online and print Guardian/Observer article. SBA have also been featured in multiple mainstream print books. So they more than satisfy both the spirit and the reality of the criteria "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself". They have also had worldwide releases on a known and well established record label and formed a notable part of the Yorkshire and UK Gothic Rock music scenes. Eddilefey (talk)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑ScottywongUser talk:Scottywong 21:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

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• Relist rationale - Hoping for more input from non-WP:SPA editors. ‑ScottywongUser talk:Scottywong 21:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Keep - The band is sufficiently notable, possibly by a large margin, based on the number of diverse, non-trivial sources available, for example [http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/freakscene-the-screaming-banshee-aircrew-make-some-noise] and [http://docs.newsbank.com/openurl?ctx_ver=z39.88-2004&rft_id=info:sid/iw.newsbank.com:AWNB:OBSC&rft_val_format=info:ofi/fmt:kev:mtx:ctx&rft_dat=11972C433B27C898&svc_dat=InfoWeb:aggregated5&req_dat=0FB3382EE6AD1E46]. At least some of the article references are legitimate, and further support notability, for example [http://www.twfmagazine.com/3.html], [http://www.londonnet.co.uk/ln/out/music/rockpop_goth.html] and [http://www.soundspheremag.com/features/screaming-banshee-aircrew/]. - MrX 22:23, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• Weak keep per criterion 7 of WP:BAND. Although I am not seeing significant coverage in reliable sources to satisfy WP:GNG: of those mentioned above, the [http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/freakscene-the-screaming-banshee-aircrew-make-some-noise first is a blog], the [http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_topdoc=1&p_docnum=1&p_sort=YMD_date:D&p_product=AWNB&p_text_direct-0=document_id=(%2011972C433B27C898%20)&p_docid=11972C433B27C898&p_theme=aggdocs&p_queryname=11972C433B27C898&f_openurl=yes&p_nbid=M57U52NNMTM2NTU0NjUwOS43NTg0MDE6MTo4OnJmLTE3NTA2&&p_multi=OBSC second a passing mention], the [http://www.twfmagazine.com/3.html third a fanzine], the [http://www.londonnet.co.uk/ln/out/music/rockpop_goth.html fourth a passing mention], and the [http://www.londonnet.co.uk/ln/out/music/rockpop_goth.html fifth an interview], they do appear to be enough to verify their prominent place in the UK goth scene. J04n(talk page) 22:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
• The issue for me is whether the UK Goth scene in the 21st Century itself is notable per WP:BAND section 7. It seems to me that the criteria for notability are quite strict and there is a paradox, I suppose, in that you have to have been part of the scene to know how tiny it is, which means that you probably don't want the article removed! The band are a relatively big fish, but in a very small pond indeed. I also draw attention to the wording of note 4, "The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the musician, ensemble, composer, or lyricist notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it." and I'm afraid the only non-trivial coverage of SBA is basically by other goths... Paul S (talk) 00:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::PaulS - if your argument is actually about the relevance of the UK goth scene in the 21st Century rather than SBA's profile as a relevant UK goth band, then may I draw your attention to the recent expansion of local policy surrounding the reporting of hate crimes to Greater Manchester police. This expansion now incorporates "alternative sub-cultures" http://www.gmp.police.uk/content/section.html?readform&s=C4D5E39C4F3817F680257961004019B9 which has been reported by the press to include goths http://news.sky.com/story/1073632/hate-crime-goths-punks-and-emos-recognised http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-22018888. The expansion was as a result of campaining by S.O.P.H.I.E the charity set up by Sylvia Lancaster following the Murder of Sophie Lancaster in 2007, which in itself generated a large amount of media coverage. If the UK goth scene had no relevence at all within contemporary culture then surely this story and its subsequent effect on the reporting of hate crimes (albeit currently only in Greater Manchester) would have made no impact at all.Gothtart (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::::But we have, in accordance with what is said in WP:BAND to separate any prominance of the subculture from that of the music scene within the goth subculture. At the risk of digressing, it could almost be argued that the visibility of the subculture in the UK is in inverse proportion to the success of the music; "goth" music was much more popular in the late 80s, because you didn't have to be a full-blown goth to like it, it was much more in the mainstream of British music at the time: in 2001-10 everyone could point out a goth without having any idea there were still new goth bands playing. Paul S (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::PaulS - Funny how you didn't mention that initially (though I did guess you had a bone to pick with the modern goth scene). sheridan (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::::I'm talking about the size of the goth music scene, obviously. Paul S (talk) 20:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP This article just needs a bit of structure to it, subheadings, musician page tables etc and a picture would be helpful. Otherwise the information is relevant and content QI, all backed with many references. Paul S, just sounds like you're on a hate campaign i'm afraid dude.

:These pages should help any editors in improving this article:

:*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Musicians/Article_guidelines

:*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Musical_artist

:*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_artist_discography

:Yellowxander (talk) 14:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

::An unwarranted personal attack, as well as completely missing the point, which is the band's notability not the article's accuracy. I've set forth my argument, I won't get embroiled any further. Paul S (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

• Weak delete - in my view, the provided sources do not offer a sufficient depth of coverage to be considered "significant coverage". Passing mentions at the end of articles about other things don't really confer notability, so the ones we can use are the ones that discuss the band in detail (though it doesn't need to be the primary subject of the article). The dishonest (and blindingly obvious) meat-puppetry in this AFD doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Stalwart111 06:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

::Could we assume good faith from all participants, please? MisterVodka (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Just needs some work. They're a pretty notable gothy band, the article just needs work. (I actually have some of their stuff on vinyl, ha ha!) SarahStierch (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.