Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephan Kuhl

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:{{la|1=Stephan Kuhl}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

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Mass-created article by Lugnuts. On the same day they created this article, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?target=Lugnuts&namespace=0&tagfilter=&newOnly=1&start=2020-05-27&end=2020-05-27&limit=500&title=Special%3AContributions they created at least 63 others] (some will have been deleted in the meantime). Fails WP:NSPORTS. Prod declined on the grounds that an interview on the German Badminton Federation website (i.e., clearly not an independent RS), talks about media exposure, but since the subject was a commentator on TV for a short period that's probably what they were talking about, not actual media coverage of them per se. Nothing found in my WP:BEFORE. FOARP (talk) 11:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. FOARP (talk) 11:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Badminton, Olympics, and Germany. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• The relevant part of the interview under question is the following: {{tq|[Interviewer]: Would you say that there was a kind of badminton boom in Germany as a result of its inclusion in the Olympics? [Kuhl]: In the short term, I would say. We had a lot of media attention at the time. I had to fulfill more requests for autographs than ever before. But after six months, that was over...}} According to that article, he was a four-time German champion and he was also a bronze medalist at the European championship, and after his career he coached the women's national team. Further, Germany is a decent badminton-ing nation with a global ranking in the top 15. I think its almost certain there'd be coverage of him, especially since he's being interviewed by the national association decades after his career (even if its an interview, it shows that he was prominent enough that there's still interest in his career, which would indicate that there was surely interest – and coverage – back when he was active). The coverage would likely be in German newspapers of the time – has any German newspaper archive been searched? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:40, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• :{{Tq|"We"}} doesn't mean "he". I searched what was available online. Clearly no such database was searched when this article was created, and it is on those wishing to keep the article to find such sourcing. [https://fazarchiv.faz.net/faz-portal/faz-archiv?q=%22Stephan+Kuhl%22&source=&max=10&sort=&offset=0&&_ts=1737195468856#hitlist Only a single hit on the FAZ archive] - a passing mention in a report about the pair Karen Stechmann and Michael Keck. Not sigcov. FOARP (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :: But when he says {{tq|We}}, referring to German badminton players in general, and {{tq|he}} was the top German badminton player from the time (or, at the very least, one of the top four), would it make any sense at all that there wouldn't be coverage of him? Why would a governing body for a major German sport interview him decades after his career if he was such an insignificant figure that not even a single newspaper devoted coverage to him? As for FAZ, that I can find more passing mentions of him in [https://www.newspapers.com/search/results/?feature-rs=true&keyword=%22Stephan+Kuhl%22+badminton American newspapers] seems to indicate that the FAZ archive isn't very comprehensive – If we had a Newspapers.com-like site for Germany I'm certain that there'd be SIGCOV to find of him. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::FAZ is the biggest German broadsheet and German newspaper of record. You're asserting the existence of something that doesn't necessarily exist based on an over-interpretation of a single phrase in an interview with something that isn't even proper news-media decades after the event.
• :::It's for the people asserting that there is significant coverage to go and find the coverage, not ask that people should just take it on trust, especially considering the history of the article-creator. Alternatively WP:BEFORE searching has to be proportionate to the effort put in to substantiating the notability fo the topic when it was created. In this case the effort put in by the article-creator was patently near-zero - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?target=Lugnuts&namespace=0&tagfilter=&newOnly=1&start=2020-05-27&end=2020-05-27&limit=500&title=Special%3AContributions it was created in mere minutes], if that. FOARP (talk) 20:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::: FAZ may be the biggest German newspaper, but saying Kuhl's confirmed non-notable by the basis of searching one newspaper is equivalent to saying that someone is non-notable because they weren't covered in The New York Times. It only makes sense that if a player says that his sport received a good deal of coverage, and that player was the best player in that sport, that that player would have received coverage (who else would be receiving coverage then to justify that statement?). I think that a governing body interviewing him decades after his career would indicate significance; if he was some no-name that not even a single newspaper would give coverage to, why would the governing body cover the person decades later? Do you think its likely that someone who was a four-time German champion in a major sport, as well as a bronze medalist at the continental championships, would not be covered somewhere? As for {{tq|q=yes|Alternatively WP:BEFORE searching has to be proportionate to the effort put in to substantiating the notability fo [sic] the topic when it was created}}, no it doesn't. Would you say then that it was inappropriate behavior that I've developed several of Lugnuts' stubs into GAs, some after they were AFDed? More importantly, I was able to find a source that mentioned his email, so I contacted him and hopefully he can respond if he's been the subject of any coverage in the past. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::::I did not only search one news paper. I searched the archives of every paper indexed by Google AND the FAZ archive. That's more than enough for an article that Lugnuts through together in a minute or less from a database listing.
• :::::If you want this article to be kept, then find sources. WP:BURDEN is clear on this. FOARP (talk) 17:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::::: How many German newspapers from the early 1990s are available through Google? BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::: Please also look to the German article were there is more information about how good he was. He played on the highest level for quite some time it seems. Themanwithnowifi (talk) 20:07, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::It's all the same statistical data: WP:SIGCOV is needed per WP:NSPORTS. FOARP (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::: It also states for badminton that if he won or has a podium finish on one of the World Grand Prix sigcov is likely to exist, he won the Swiss Open in 1990. Which means that we can assume with certainty that sigcov would exist per WP:NSPORTS section about badminton. Themanwithnowifi (talk) 05:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::He and his partner won the men’s doubles in the 1990 Swiss open (which, note, was not part of the Grand Prix circuit at the time, since this was only created in 2007), not him personally. It also says the article has to eventually pass GNG, which this doesn’t because, as is very clear after all this discussion, none of you can find anything in terms of SIGCOV and neither can I. [https://www.e-newspaperarchives.ch/?a=q&hs=1&r=1&results=1&txf=txIN&txq=%E2%80%9CStephan+Kuhl%E2%80%9D&e=-------de-20--1--img-txIN--------0----- Here’s the Swiss newspaper archive results for Stephan Kuhl], here's [https://www.spiegel-antiquariat.de/search?sSearch=%22Stephan+Kuhl%22 Der Spiegel], here's [https://archive.org/search?query=%22Stephan+Kuhl%22&sin=TXT the Internet Archive's results] (which covers a number of German publications) for Stephan Kuhl. 1990 was not very long ago as these things go, nor is German some obscure language just waiting to be archived properly - there’s just no “there” there. FOARP (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Delete. While I agree that, in theory, a four-time German badminton champion should be notable, the GNG-level sources simply are not there. The best sources are the two badminton.de links in the article, neither of which constitutes sigcov. Toadspike [Talk] 10:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Benison (Beni · talk) 12:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:Delete. Zero SIGCOV has been uncovered despite extensive searches by FOARP. Regardless of meeting a sport-specific criterion, all sportspeople must be the subject of a SIGCOV source cited in the article in order to even presume further coverage exists. JoelleJay (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:Delete with condition = Stephan Kuhl record of tournaments is dire compared to his peers and competitors in those times. But according to his Olympedia entry and Swiss Open page in this very wiki, Stephan Kuhl DID won a Swiss Open with Stefan Frey in 1990. Swiss Open is an actual IBF Grand Prix and most athletes who won it at that time did had an entry on Swiss Open on those times as Grand Prix instead of normal IBF International tournament. Therefore in general, this fulfilled WP:NBAD criteria terms.

:BUT, as we know - WP:NBAD does not mean anything if WP:NSPORT is not fulfilled first and I have to admit, the resources I have found is not fulfilling the WP:SIGCOV which suppose to covering his tournaments records wins and losses. One of the most common usage of tournament records is Tournament Software (TS). Although TS has 1989 Swiss Open, they do not have record on 1990 Swiss Open and thus, Stephan win count on TS for Swiss Open does not exist.

:So, the condition is : Only maintain his article if you find some reliable sources on his Swiss Open win and some International like Olympedia claim (Austrian and Irish Open) as supporting factor for WP:SIGCOV purposes. If nobody else finds it - Delete Lowyat Slyder (talk) 15:49, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

::The Swiss Open was not an IBF Grand Prix tournament when Stephan Kuhl and his partner won the men's doubles in 1990 - the Grand Prix was only established in 2007 per our article on it and the Swiss open only became part of it in 2011. Not an WP:NBAD pass.

::EDIT:just to get a feel for the history of this I went through the archives of World Badminton Magazine (published by the IBF so not an independent reliable source). The only tournament reported on in the IBF magazine that Kuhl and Frey won in 1990 in Switzerland was "The Watchmaking Metropolis Tournament" (see [https://worldbadminton.com/museum/publications/WorldBadminton/documents/v18_n02_199006-07.pdf page 18 here]). Even in the IBF in-house magazine, the win of Kuhl and Frey at the Watch Making Metropolis Tournament was covered in a single paragraph (i.e., not significant coverage even if this was an independent source). Notably the schedule of international tournaments in 1990 published in December 1989 did not include anything called "The Swiss Open" (see page 24 [https://worldbadminton.com/museum/publications/WorldBadminton/documents/v17_n04_198912.pdf here]). Based on what [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Chaux-de-Fonds_International this DE Wiki article says] the "The Watchmaking Metropolis Tournament" is what was afterwards called "La Chaux-de-Fonds International", and wasn't a tournament of any great significance. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Open_(Badminton) From what the DE wiki article about the Swiss Open says], it appears to have been in severe financial trouble in 1989-90 which would explain it essentially not being held and the La Chaux-de-Fonds Tournament later replacing it for 1990 stats purposes in some databases (but not Tournament Software which is the most definitive source).

::TL;DR - winning "The Swiss Open" in 1990 doesn't indicate notability. The Swiss Open essentially wasn’t held in 1990. FOARP (talk) 08:59, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

: Keep. Bronze at 1992 European Badminton Championships, former German national coach, Olympian. Success at Swiss Open 1990 (badmintoneurope.com; L’Impartial, 12. March 1990, p. 9; Federball 31, 1990), Irish Open 1990 (World Badminton, March 1991, p. 10 and 28), Czechoslovakian International 1988 (Federball 29, 1988, 12, p. 3–4; World Badminton, December 1988, p. 13, March 1989, p. 40); Austrian International 1988 (Badminton-Sport 36, 1988, 7, p. 4), World Student Champion [https://web.archive.org/web/20180917215610/http://archiv.badminton.de/Studierende-University.319.0.html], 4x German Champion (Martin Knupp: Deutscher Badminton Almanach. 2003). Please use printed literature, in 1990 there was nothing online, and it is still hard to find useful German online sport archives from this time. Nevertheless 13 hits in Singapore [https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/search?q=Stephan%20Kuhl%20badminton]. --Florentyna (talk) 04:49, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::badmintoneurope.com is not independent {{n}}. [https://www.e-newspaperarchives.ch/?a=d&d=IMP19900312-01.2.51&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN--------0----- L'impartial] is a namecheck, and not even his full name {{n}}. [https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Federball_(Zeitschrift)?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc Federball] is not independent as it is from a governing org {{n}}. I can't tell whether "World Badminton" is supposed to be [https://www.worldbadminton.com/ this] SPS/UGS {{n}} or something from a governing org {{n}}. [https://www.badminton.de/der-dbv/magazine/ Badminton-Sport] is a magazine from another governing org, not independent {{n}}. DBA is self-published, can never be used for a BLP {{n}}. The first link is obviously not independent (governing sports body). From the second link, of the 13 hits, 7 are viewable and every single one is a namecheck in stats. None of the paywalled sources indicate in any way that there would be coverage beyond stats.{{pb}}By global consensus, for a sportsperson to be kept IRS SIGCOV must be proven, and it is emphatically not shown by a bunch of non-independent and self-published sources. JoelleJay (talk) 07:51, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Second all of this, and as discussed above, the Swiss Open wasn't even held in 1990, and the L'Impartial Article isn't about the Swiss Open - it clearly states it's about the La Chaux-de-Fonds tournament. "World Badminton" is [https://worldbadminton.com/museum/publications/WorldBadminton/documents/v18_n02_199006-07.pdf this] - the in-house publication of the IBF, so not independent, and even if it was it doesn't give SIGCOV to Kuhl. FOARP (talk) 17:15, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::: Again: Bronze at 1992 European Badminton Championships, former German national coach, Olympian. We have here Wikipedia:Notability (sports). There are sportspeople notable if: Have won a medal... Florentyna (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Florentyna, that is not correct. To meet NSPORT, the subject must meet GNG and there must be a source of IRS SIGCOV actively cited in the article. {{tq|Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject}}. Notice also that nowhere does the text say {{tq|There are sportspeople notable if: Have won a medal}}. Instead it says {{tq|Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes in badminton if they meet the following criterion: Have had a podium finish at tournaments of the BWF Grand Prix Gold and Grand Prix }} JoelleJay (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::Added to this: it was a medal in the men's doubles, not an individual medal (so indicating the notability of his team with Frey, not him personally), and the 1992 European Championships both weren't {{tq|"tournaments of the BWF Grand Prix Gold and Grand Prix"}} because those didn't start until 2007. They weren't part of the earlier IBF Grand Prix either (see the calendar of events on page 5 [https://worldbadminton.com/museum/publications/WorldBadminton/documents/v19_n04_199112.pdf here] - only events with a GP star against them were Grand Prix events). This was clearly a minor tournament.

::::::It also has to be pointed out that even in the IBF's in-house magazine, Kuhl and Frey getting third place in the men's doubles wasn't mentioned at all (see page 8 [https://worldbadminton.com/museum/publications/WorldBadminton/documents/v20_n02_199206-07.pdf here], and indeed the results page where they didn't even bother to mention this). Clearly not a very notable achievement. FOARP (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.