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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tahvo Putkonen

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After the article was improved, the consensus is clearly to retain it in some form. A move to an article on the "event" (eg Execution of Tahvo Putkonen) has been suggested to overcome any WP:BIO1E concerns. Because the move was suggested late in the AfD there's no consensus for it here so "move" is not part of the AfD's outcome. However, it is a sensible suggestion so I recommend a requested move be opened, or if any editor feels particulary bold, carry out the move unilaterally. Mkativerata (talk) 19:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

=[[Tahvo Putkonen]]=

:{{la|Tahvo Putkonen}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Tahvo Putkonen}})

Not notable as there seem to be no reliable sources. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

:*This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 17:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

:(pssst. It was Jack Merridew who tagged it, not the ARS. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC))

::Yes, I saw that. The wording of the {{t|ARSnote}} template is somewhat ambiguous and should probably be updated; I don't think it is intended to mean that the tagging of the article was necessarily performed by an ARS member, but instead that it has been tagged in the hopes that the ARS will rescue it. SnottyWong babble 06:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:::I hesitate to ascribe any particular motivation to Jack Merridew, as I fear my head would not look well stuck on a sharpened stick. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete unless sources can be found. I haven't found anything in multiple sources. I have found sources that indicated the last execution was in 1824, rather than 1825, but I think all of them go back to a single communication from a finnish court of appeals judge, none list the person executed by name. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • There is a Finnish entry for this person. [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahvo_Putkonen&ei=1dQGTb2aFcOqlAfLhMXfCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTahvo%2BPutkonen%2B30%2Blokakuu%2B1795%2BSuonenjoella,%2BSuomi%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Divnso] The history of the article shows that after the first person created it, the next came and tagged it as rubbish. No references there either. I tried using Google translator to find out some Finnish words and search around, but didn't find anything. Google books has results, but they look like the books that just print Wikipedia content. Dream Focus 02:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:*I think Colonel Warden pointed to the same finnish source, and it doesn't look reliable to me, reads like a forum or wiki. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::*Not true (see my talk page) --hydrox (talk) 08:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete: unreferenced bio, no assertion that the topic meets WP:BIO & no reliable sources identifiable through Google News or Books, beyond a brief mention on a German site, apparaently dealing with the subject of the death penalty. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 11:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Hold it, please. The person is notable because he was the last person in Finland to be sentenced to death to receive the death penalty (peace time). [http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/68/68_55.htm Here] is a whole lot about the person and his crime in Finnish (section Putkonen, Tahvo Tahvonpoika [note: in Finland it's common to name person in the form , ]). I'll try to put the inline references in place to the en-wiki article. --hydrox (talk) 11:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:*That fact is already covered in List of people who were beheaded. It seems unreasonable to have a separate article (per WP:ONEEVENT). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 11:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::*Most other people on that page have an article as well. Why make an exception here? Remember that Wikipedia is not paper. With the references at hand I can easily promote this article to an encyclopedia-grade entry (just give me a moment please). --hydrox (talk) 12:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:::*"Most other people on that page" are famous for something beyond being beheaded (or at the very least their beheading was not simply a historical footnote). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 12:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::::*Well, even if a person was a sidenote on the pages of history, but his personal history has been researched well and a good article can be written, I still don't understand why we shouldn't do so in an encyclopedia that's not bound by weight of paper. Also, I think you have misunderstood WP:ONEEVENT. The execution of Mr. Tahvo Putkonen is a significant event, as capital punishment has been abolished in most of the civilized world. The policy states that we shouldn't have article on both Tahvo Putkonen and Execution of Tahvo Putkonen, unless Putkonen was notable outside of his execution, which is hardly the case for a Tsarist farmhand. Recent example: Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly redirects to 2010 Stockholm bombings – the person is notable only from his crime. --hydrox (talk) 14:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::*So, by your reasoning, if someone else is beheaded in Finland in the future, then this person would no longer have a claim to notability, since they will then be the second-to-last person beheaded in Finland? Saying that no one will ever be beheaded in Finland again would be WP:CRYSTAL (even though it is unlikely), and saying this person is notable simply because they're the last person to have been beheaded is invalid because notability is not temporary. SnottyWong express 20:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::*If this person has significant coverage in reliable sources for being the last person to be executed, then they are notable. What might or might not happen in the future is not relevant. If he is notable now, he will always be notable - if the death penalty is reinstated after such a long time, is someone going to come along and unwrite all the articles written about him? --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment Article has been expanded in detail, is now 100% sourced to a peer-reviewed publication. --hydrox (talk) 14:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:From what I can understand from the Google translation of those sources, they appear to verify this person's existence, the details of the crime, and the fact that he was executed by beheading. In other words, it documents that this person exists, that he committed a crime, and that he was put to death for the crime. I don't see how these sources establish why this person was notable. SnottyWong comment 21:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::There's whole lot about the crime and the evidence based on which he was sentenced to death. --hydrox (talk) 08:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep Sources now confirm the information. Being "the last person to receive the capital punishment in Finland during peacetime" is something that makes him notable. I wonder how many Finnish textbooks and other books have this fact in them. Dream Focus 21:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:So, if Finland should ever change its mind, reinstate capital punishment, and sentence someone to death, then what happens to the notability of Putkonen? This is not a valid basis for notability because notability is not temporary. SnottyWong speak 22:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::Your argument here is flawed. Yes, notability is not temporary, but all that means is that if the death penalty were to be reinstated, he would remain notable for being the last person to be executed before the long period during which death penalty was abolished. Following your logic, nothing is notable because the universe might not be eternal. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::I think he would still be notable. Being the last person to receive death penalty for almost 200 years now makes him notable, even in the unlikely case that death penalty was reinstated (currently impossible per European Convention of Human Rights) --hydrox (talk) 08:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Weak delete I can't find significant coverage. The two articles currently referenced at the Genealogical Society of Finland don't quite in my mind constitute significant coverage. If someone else finds more sources, I may reconsider. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per [WP:HEY as being rescued. Bearian (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment, Hydrox has kindly provide a partial translation of one of the sources, and I have put that on the article's talk page. I'm going to poke around a bit to see if I can find anything else. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep and change name of article to the event, not the person. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep -- The last victim of capital punishment might just about be notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Move to an event article. Per WP:BIO1E - coverage appears to support an article on the event, but on the person himself. Alzarian16 (talk) 15:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.