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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thajuddin (2nd nomination)

{{delrevxfd|date=2025 January 17|page=Thajuddin}}

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Ultimately, there was a consensus that the provided sourcing did not establish notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

=[[:Thajuddin]]=

AfDs for this article:

{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thajuddin}}

{{AFD help}}

:{{la|1=Thajuddin}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Thajuddin}})

Article on certain topic "Thauddin" about the conversion of a Hindu king to Islam - Only found in conspiracy theories and low quality news reports by journalists. Usually supported by substandard books and research papers (all them by Muslim authors)

{{tl|Db-hoax}} JamesMdp (talk) 06:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

:That tag should have been on the article, but no harm done. Bearian (talk) 06:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Delete Unlikely historical. Agletarang (talk) 09:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Delete: The article relies on substandard references that fail to meet WP:RS and WP:V standards. For example:
    The cited works by Y. Friedmann and O. Loth are largely speculative and don't provide direct evidence for the subject's historicity. Katz’s "Who Are the Jews of India?" and Prange’s "Monsoon Islam" discuss tangentially related topics, not corroborating the claimed events. Sources like "Islamqa.info" and the claimed link to the "splitting of the moon" belong to religious interpretations, not historical fact. The narrative seems to be rooted in a WP:FRINGE, lacking corroboration in mainstream academic research. The cited “Qissat Shakarwati Farmad” is itself unverifiable beyond dubious origins and has been critiqued for being anecdotal. The connection to Cheraman Perumal converting to Islam is unsupported by high-quality sources, reinforcing this as a likely WP:HOAX. Per NOT a repository of myths and notability guidelines, this article fails en-wiki standards. Nxcrypto Message 06:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
  • :Plus, this article was created directly in the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thajuddin&oldid=1195074038 mainspace] by DonParlo, who is now globally blocked. This further raises doubts about this hoax article legitimacy. Nxcrypto Message 06:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

:Delete: Previous editors of the article deliberately included these references to give it an appearance of credibility. However, the content of the article does not align with the cited sources. JamesMdp (talk) 10:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) (striking duplicate vote, your nomination is considered your "vote". Liz Read! Talk! 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC))

:Keep: Based on the basic criteria WP:BASIC, people are considered notable if they have received significant coverage in more than one publication, and are considered worthy of being retained. Historical and religious biography [https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Kerala_History_and_its_Makers/wnAjqjhc1VcC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Cheraman+Perumal&pg=PA57&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Kerala_History_and_its_Makers/wnAjqjhc1VcC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Cheraman+Perumal&pg=PA57&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.ae/books/edition/MALABAR_MANUAL_by_William_Logan/0TJFDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Cheraman+Perumal&pg=PT935&printsec=frontcover][https://www.iiste.org/Journals/index.php/HRL/article/download/20143/20152][https://www.arabnews.com/node/406092][https://studenttheses.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A3283784/view][https://www.keralatourism.org/muziris/museums/islamic-history-museum][https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/kochi/2024/Jul/11/unravelling-keralas-islamic-history], this name is slightly less popular, if this bio is renamed to the well-known Cheraman Perumal, more Confucianism can be avoided. Cheraman Juma Mosque, which is part of the first Muslim mosque in India, established in 629 CE, is named after him in history ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 04:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Relisting. I'd like to see an evaluation of sources brought into the discussion before closing this discuasion. And from what I can see, this is not a "hoax" but falls into the realm of legendary. We have plenty of articles on legendary figures from different cultures so that shouldn't be a pivotal reason to delete.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

:Comment: This is not a hoax, it is centuries old and how can historical pages or a historical event be called a hoax?

This person has a history of living and dying, and according to reliable historical sources, he was a member of a royal family and a ruler, royalty/kings are automatically notable

:reference below:

::#Books:- [https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Census_of_India_1961/A-R1_bfM4nEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Thajuddin+cheraman&dq=Thajuddin+cheraman&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Islam_and_Britain/Z3Q1DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Thajuddin+cheraman&pg=PA6&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Muslim_Monuments_in_Kerala/dJFuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Thajuddin+cheraman&dq=Thajuddin+cheraman&printsec=frontcover][https://www.iphbooks.com/productdetails.php?id=670][https://www.google.ae/books/edition/Perum%C4%81%E1%B8%B7s_of_Kerala/i3lYzQEACAAJ?hl=en]

::#News articles :-[https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/kochi/2024/Jul/11/unravelling-keralas-islamic-history][https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/perspective/enter-the-world-of-vidya-the-first-mosque-of-india-382384/][https://www.pressreader.com/oman/oman-daily-observer/20211030/281547999108907][https://tribune.com.pk/story/895247/indian-pm-to-visit-centuries-old-mosque-in-kerala][https://www.onmanorama.com/travel/kerala/2019/11/22/cheraman-juma-masjid-mosque-communal-harmony-kerala-history.html]

::#JSTOR :-[https://www.jstor.org/stable/44137120][https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1b742qw][https://www.jstor.org/stable/44145910]

::#Other articles:- [https://www.dhofarintourism.com/post/la-leggenda-di-cheraman-perumal] [https://studenttheses.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A3283784/view][https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320344280_CHERAMAN_PERUMALS_JOURNEY_TO_MAKKAH_HISTORY_AND_FICTION] [https://e-malabari.my/perumal.htm] -- ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Delete as article not meet the criteria outlined in WP:V and WP:GNG. The reliance on legends and inconsistent accounts compromises its encyclopedic value.Pinkish Flowers (talk) 12:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

{{collapse top|AI-generated gibberish by blocked sock}}

  • Keep To construct an argument for retaining the Wikipedia page about Cheraman Perumal/Thajuddin, we can align it with several Wikipedia policies and guidelines that support the inclusion of notable figures, even those whose historicity may be partially based on legend.

**1. Wikipedia is Not a Publisher of Original Thought (WP:NOTORIGINAL)**

While some sources on Cheraman Perumal are speculative or rooted in legend, Wikipedia is not required to determine the absolute truth of every historical claim. Instead, it serves as a neutral repository of verifiable information from reliable secondary sources. This principle allows the page to exist as long as it reflects the coverage in independent, published works.

  • 2. Notability Criteria for Historical and Legendary Figures (WP:BASIC & WP:GNG)**

- **Significant Coverage**: Cheraman Perumal/Thajuddin has been discussed in historical texts, religious accounts, and modern analyses. Works like *Tuhfat al-Mujahidin*, *Qissat Shakarwati Farmad*, and other sources cited in the discussion provide sufficient evidence of significant coverage.

- **Cultural and Historical Relevance**: As the purported first Indian monarch to embrace Islam and a figure associated with Kerala's early Islamic history, Cheraman Perumal holds notability for his impact on religious and cultural narratives.

Even if some accounts are legendary, the individual meets notability guidelines as they have received extensive attention over centuries, reflected in religious traditions, historical writings, and cultural practices (e.g., the Cheraman Juma Mosque).

**3. Articles on Legendary Figures (WP:NOTABLEPEOPLE & WP:LEGENDS)**

- Wikipedia already includes entries on numerous legendary or semi-historical figures (e.g., King Arthur, Joan of Arc, and Romulus). Cheraman Perumal fits this precedent, as his story is both legendary and rooted in documented traditions.

- **"Wikipedia is Not Truth" (WP:V)**: What matters is whether reliable sources present the narrative, not whether the events are objectively true. The article should frame the story as a legend while referencing credible sources discussing its historicity or significance.

  • 4. Preservation of Regional and Religious History (WP:WORLDVIEW)**

Wikipedia is committed to representing global perspectives fairly. The story of Cheraman Perumal is significant to the history of Islam in India and Kerala's regional history. Deleting the article risks undermining representation for a region and religion whose early history in India is shaped by such narratives. Retaining the article ensures inclusivity in documenting human history.

  • 5. Improving the Page Rather Than Deletion (WP:IMPERFECT)**

- Wikipedia allows for the improvement of articles rather than outright deletion if the subject is notable but poorly written or cited.

- **Proposed Actions**:

- Rename the article to "Cheraman Perumal" to better align with historical texts and public recognition.

- Clearly distinguish between legend and verifiable history in the content.

- Replace poor sources with high-quality references from peer-reviewed journals or respected historical texts.

  • Conclusion**

Cheraman Perumal meets Wikipedia’s criteria for notability and inclusion as a historical and legendary figure. Rather than deletion, the page should be improved to reflect its cultural and historical significance accurately. By addressing content quality issues, the article can serve as a valuable resource on the intersection of legend, history, and early Islam in India. AbdullaParloP (talk) 5:44, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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  • Comment: The above keep by {{U|AbdullahParloP}} should be discarded, considering this is a poor attempt to WP:BLUDGEON the AfD procedure [https://app.gptzero.me/documents/f9c11851-d18b-46d3-ab35-11d3e3d0bbbc/share with an AI generated comment], which barely addresses the issues of legendary tales and dubious sources. Garuda Talk! 01:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Delete Almost no reliable sources mention this subject. Those who do, they have been misled by the apparent disinformation. CharlesWain (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC){{collapse top| blocked sock}}
  • :While the sources indicate that the Thajuddin legend may not be historically verified, they still suggest a strong cultural significance. Given this, it would be reasonable to maintain the Thajuddin wiki page, emphasizing its legend status while noting the lack of concrete historical evidence. This approach keeps the page informative and acknowledges its place in folklore. Abdullah099$55 (talk) 19:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

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{{collapse top|blocked sock}}

  • Keep Several reliable sources mention this subject, providing verifiable information. Those who claim otherwise might be misinterpreting or ignoring the available evidence. AbdullahParloP (talk) 04:37, 12 January 2025 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbdullaParloP (talk • contribs)

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  • :@Abdullah099$55 you're now blocked as a [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Abdullah099$55 sock puppet] including above AI warrior @AbdullaParloP. Nxcrypto Message 08:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Admins closing this discussion, please note:
  • 2nd Comment: The nominator's argument here is that this article is a character in a story made up by news reporters and journalists, and another argument is that it is a fake story by Muslim writers. But this is completely absurd.

This makes it a historical biography. Is there a difference in Wikipedia policy on Muslim writers or Hindu writers or other religious writers??

Such statements are like mixing politics with religion and taking up editing jobs for political gain.

Another thing is that references on this page and links to it on other pages were removed without giving proper reasons[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thajuddin&action=history&offset=&limit=500]. The nominator and editor who did this is someone with less than [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=JamesMdp a month of experience], like a targeted political gain. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rulers_of_the_Chera_dynasty&action=history] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/JamesMdp&target=JamesMdp&offset=&limit=500]

Some participants in this claim that this is a hoax story. If this is a hoax story, how did it get written in history??

History says that it played an important role in the entry of Islam into [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India#Early_history_of_Islam_in_India India] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Kerala#History Kerala]

One of the first mosques in India was built in his name, which was personally visited and approved by the [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/pm-narendra-modi-likely-to-visit-indias-oldest-mosque-during-kerala-trip/articleshow/47486139.cms Prime Minister of India] [https://tribune.com.pk/story/895247/indian-pm-to-visit-centuries-old-mosque-in-kerala] and the former [https://dpl.rashtrapatibhavan.gov.in/view_datails/Nzcy President of India]. The current Prime Minister of India, when he went to Saudi Arabia, gifted a [https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/narendra-modi-cheraman-juma-masjid-replica-saudi-king-gift/ golden model of the mosque] named after this biography,[https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-gifts-gold-plated-replica-of-ancient-kerala-mosque-to-saudi-king/][https://saudigazette.com.sa/article/152212][https://zeenews.india.com/news/india/pm-modi-gifts-saudi-king-gold-plated-replica-of-cheraman-juma-masjid-in-kerala_1872105.html][https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2016/Apr/03/pm-gifts-saudi-king-gold-replica-of-kerala-mosque-919696.html]

This was expanded a bit during the discussions about the deletion of the article, the article is not complete and needs to be expanded further.

These are my final arguments. ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 04:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

:What do you mean by approved by Prime Minister of India? Visits or mentions by political figures often serve to promote cultural heritage but are not validations of historical accuracy. They do not meet the criteria for reliable sources under WP:RS, as they are not based on peer-reviewed research or historical analysis. Nxcrypto Message 13:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

::The Indian Prime Minister approved it meaning that the Prime Minister came official visit there.[https://www.indiatvnews.com/politics/national/pm-modi-may-visit-cheraman-juma-masjid-in-kerala-29779.html][https://www.onmanorama.com/travel/kerala/2018/06/30/here-everything-you-need-to-know-about-cheraman-juma-masjid.html][https://tribune.com.pk/story/895247/indian-pm-to-visit-centuries-old-mosque-in-kerala#google_vignette]

::It was an official visit by the Prime Minister. Not only the Prime Minister but also the former President of India [https://dpl.rashtrapatibhavan.gov.in/view_datails/Nzcy] has made an official visit.

::This is not meant to be notability, it is because it is a mosque built in the name of a person recorded in history, the above-mentioned Prime Minister and the President made an official visit, and when the Prime Minister visited Saudi Arabia, a model of it was given as a gift. There is evidence for all this.[https://www.pmindia.gov.in/en/news_updates/pms-gift-to-the-king-of-saudi-arabia/?tag_term=saudi-arabia&comment=disable]

::Not only this, my argument is that he was a king ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(royalty)#Royalty royalty are automatically notable]), he ruled and evidence has been given as reference, he saw the Prophet is another matter. The place where he was buried after his death is in Salah in Oman [https://www.omanobserver.om/article/1108887/oman/community/from-kerala-to-salalah][https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/cheraman-juma-masjid-a-1000-year-old-lamp-burns-in-this-mosque/articleshow/47486911.cms] and there is evidence for that too, the myth story beliefs about the Prophet splitting the moon are available as other articles on Wikipedia, such myths were written in his life as well, there are references in books, articles and books, it is in this discussion, this article is in the reference

::::This biography is part of history.

:::: {{tq|''The traders explained that the king’s vision was most likely a reference to one of the miracles performed by the Prophet Muhammed. Convinced, the King converted to Islam and set off to Mecca, Islam’s holiest site. He died before he could return to his kingdom, but left instructions to build what would become India’s first mosque. [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/4/23/indias-cheraman-mosque-a-symbol-of-religious-harmony Al Jazeera Report]}}

::Spworld2 (talk) 06:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

:::You repeated the same argument. I don’t think the argument warrants any further response. Nxcrypto Message 11:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Sorry, I didn't just say one thing, in my second comment (Prime Minister) you only mentioned one incident, which I understand is not of direct relevance, but you didn't mention another relevance. Spworld2 (talk) 12:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.