Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Gray Area

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:{{la|1=The Gray Area}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=The Gray Area}})

Apparently non-notable podcast. Sources cited don't come even close to meeting WP:GNG, and a search finds nothing better (albeit that it is admittedly a tricky term to search for). Was earlier PROD'ded, then restored, and now I'm asking the community to decide whether it should be kept. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Radio, Internet, United States of America, and New York. DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Question...are there two? I'm getting a lot of (non-RS) hits for The Gray Area with Sean Illing? Valereee (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• :The Sean Illing podcast was renamed from Vox Conversations to The Gray Area in October 2022: a flagrant IP grab. The Gray Area has been around since 2017, producing innovative and groundbreaking stories, including an adaptation of Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper" that has been taught in classrooms. The Sean Illing move was a targeted campaign by a big media company to push a highly notable independently produced podcast from the search results. The Gray Area won the coveted Parsec Award. It received a City Artist Corps grant in 2021 and played to a packed Manhattan theatre. It has been featured on numerous podcasts and radio shows, including The Sonic Society and Midnight Audio Theatre. By the logic expressed in this forum, comparable audio dramas that have Wikipedia pages such as Dark Dice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Dice and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amelia_Project The Amelia Project should also be deleted. Which would be effectively erasing the history of audio drama. If you would like, I would be more than happy to have third parties flesh out the awards and the media attention that the show has received. But it is very clear that the PROD gambit was a calculated move to erase a show that is offering significant contributions to audio drama. Thanks. Grayareapod (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• ::{{ping|Grayareapod}} - You have previous stated you don't know much about Wikipedia's "arcane" procedures. Please educate yourself. Wikipedia articles need to use appropriate sources to establish notability as it pertains to an encyclopedia. If you can provide the required references that are reliable and independent of the topic, then it is possible for notability to be establish. Your say so is 100% not independent. There was no PROD gambit. The article as it exists does not hold water to the requirements of an encyclopedia article at this time. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• ::@Grayareapod: if there are other articles that should be deleted, you are more than welcome to initiate the deletion procedure(s). That being said, you may wish to see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• Delete: NN podcast. Article should have remained deleted. UtherSRG (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

:The PROD tag was inserted by TipsyElephant, who has fleshed out a number of articles on podcasts, but who appeared to have a clear conflict of interest in doing so that he failed to disclose. Grayareapod (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

::{{ping|Grayareapod}} Please, no personal attacks. It's obvious your emotions are enflamed by these recent actions. Please consider a cool-down before responding. You've made yourself clear. Please do not bludgeon the dialogue. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

::It was a straighforward undeletion request for a PRODed article. Is there an argument here to deny undeletion when someone objects to the PROD? Jay 💬 09:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

:::That account could have been blocked as a clear role account, but we'd still have their associates here so not sure it would have helped and to do now would probably be needlessly inflammatory. It was a clean PROD and semi clean challenge, but hopefully consensus here will sort it out. The SPAs aren't being disruptive, but we can semi it if needed. Star Mississippi 11:41, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

::::Blocking as a role account would only have delayed the process by a few minutes or hours. Undeletion is independent of that. Jay 💬 17:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

• Delete - I'm not seeing anything significant which meets the GNG. It is possible that this could change in the future but right now it hasn't met the threshold IMO. JMWt (talk) 19:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• :The page has been edited to meet the standards of GNG and meet the threshold. Yeraki (talk) 01:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
• Radiophoto: Keep this page. This Sean Illing person is not the creator of the Gray Area podcast. I have been involved since the beginning (2017) as a voice actor and have no idea who Mr. Illing is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiophoto (talk • contribs) — Radiophoto (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• The page needs to be kept. The Gray Area has existed since 2017. In 2017, the very first year of production, "Hello" was nominated for the Parsec award. In 2018 two episodes were nominated, "Loopholes" and "Buddies for Hire". "Buddies for Hire" won under the category Best Speculative Fiction Story: Large Cast (Short Form). https://locusmag.com/2018/12/2018-parsec-awards-winners/ The Gray Area has aired 29 episodes, reminiscent of Old Time Radio. Edward Champion even managed to get a grant and did a Live Stage Production of the Audio Drama on October 16, 2021. https://www.broadwayworld.com/off-off-broadway/article/Live-Performance-of-THE-GRAY-AREA-to-be-Presented-at-the-Gene-Frankel-Theatre-20211005 The Gray Area is currently in its 3rd season of production. Every new season of the audio drama gets more complex. The stories stir the imagination. They address relevant topics of our times. To my understanding Sean Illing Vox who has the "Vox Podcast" changed the name of his podcast to the Gray Area in October 2022. He even dared used the same font in an attempt to create confusion and push a notable podcast down further in the search results. It appears he is succeeding as we are now having this discussion whether this amazing audio drama's page, with a description of each episode should be deleted or even relevant? Maybe some people don't like Edward Champion. Despite personal opinions his artistic talent cannot be denied. He works with paid actors that have come back season after season. It will be a great injustice if Wikipedia deleted this page. It deserves its place in Wikipedia, not only for the creator and the public; but from what I can estimate, the over 100 actors who with pride, can reference this award winning podcast in their CVs. The fact that more seasons are coming shows the page is still notable. The page has links to the episodes with a small description of each episode. We should not allow Vox to misappropriate "The Gray Area" and win against an independent artist. Yeraki (talk) 23:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeraki (talk • contribs) — Yeraki (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete Plenty of hits for the other podcast with this name with Sean Illy, no sourcing found for this "radio drama". Appears largely PROMO and uses puffy language. Oaktree b (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
• :Sean Illy changed his name to the Gray Area with the same font in October 2022. Prior to that his blog was called Sean Illy Vox. That does not invalidate the original Gray Area Audio drama podcast created by Edward Champion. The podcast "The Gray Area" by Edward Champion has been producing content since 2017. A new season is currently under production. Wikipedia is not a place where the most popular google hits win. Yeraki (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
• ::Exactly, there are zero sources discussing the radio play. Oaktree b (talk) 13:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
• KEEP - I have been involved with The Gray Area since 2018 - this page should not be deleted - there's something odd going on - this is an ward winning production, not only a podcast but it also won a grant to be staged in New York City at The Gene Frankel Theatre — Preceding unsigned comment added by PPMOG (talk • contribs) — PPMOG (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete the only coverage is blogs and other equally-obscure podcasts. The award is from a blog that doesn't appear to have substantial coverage of the podcast. If Edward Champion were the subject of an article a redirect might be possible, but the sources here aren't enough for that either. Also, I must point out that insinuations about some other podcast will not make this one notable. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
• Delete I think {{u|Walt Yoder}} sums up the situation pretty well: the available sources are a mix of unreliable and/or superficial. XOR'easter (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
• Delete: Walt Yoder assessed this well.  // Timothy :: talk  07:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

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:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.