Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tito Traversa

:{{la|Tito Traversa}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [http://toolserver.org/~snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tito_Traversa Stats])

:({{Find sources|Tito Traversa}})

BIO1E, NOTMEMORIAL. Apparently a promising mountain climbing talent who died at a young age. All the information on him comes from his obits, which indicate that he was climbing difficult sport climbing routes at an early age, without any indication of where or what (thus the sources show he is notable not for his accomplishments, but for his death). He has no notability outside of climbing, and not having won any trophies or competitions in climbing, he does not meet GNG, ATHLETE, or any other specialized notability guidelines. MSJapan (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Delete Obviously only known because he died from a fall, so this is an utter violation of NOTMEMORIAL. Nothing long-standing in this event either. Beerest355 Talk 22:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Keep His death has received international press coverage. Perhaps a move to Death of Tito Traversa is in order.--Racklever (talk) 06:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

:*Support keep per above. --kikichugirl (talk) 03:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Delete. Traversa does not meet the notability standard for an athlete. The guidelines, set out at WP:SPORTCRIT are intended to reflect the fact that sports figures are likely to meet Wikipedia's basic standards of inclusion if they have, for example, participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level. The very limited coverage of Traversa indicates that, although very talented for his age, he did not come anywhere near the basic standard required to be truly considered a notable climber. He may have had potential, but did not have time to fulfill it. Accordingly, keeping the article would effectively be a memorial to a talented younger athlete, but not in accordance per the WP policy. Wikipeterproject (talk) 12:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Keep He's notable enough. He was the youngest person to make a 5.14 graded climb (the standard of climbing when using that scale). He was also (using UTC) the first 10 year old to make a 5.14 climb (a few hours earlier than Brooke Raboutou, who is a two weeks older).

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Delete fails WP:SPORTCRIT, Wikipedia is not a memorial website. Hekerui (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Delete Notability seems to rest almost entirely on his untimely death. If someone wants to recreate with better sourcing and coverage of his career, if such exists, that would be a different matter. Candleabracadabra (talk) 21:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Keep He broke records how is that not notable in addition to that there is international coverage on his death. Entity of the Void (talk) 21:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

::There was also international coverage of a monkey wearing a coat outside of an IKEA a while back. Far more. Still was, as of June. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

:::So you want to make a page for the monkey ? Entity of the Void (talk) 07:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

::::I didn't, until after I mentioned it. Then I tried searching to see if it had already been created and shot down. I'm surprised it wasn't (at least not under any title I tried). Now that I think of it, that monkey has a pretty strong case! This guy still doesn't. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::If you dont think he has a good case why did you vote keep ? Entity of the Void (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::It was a conditional keep, with a big "if". Thought it could just use some work. Now that I've looked a bit, it doesn't seem there are notable achievements to add, so it's basically a delete vote. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::*Actually, the Ikea monkey did have an article, but was deleted in an AfD.Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 03:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Keep, IF the championships, broken records or other notable achievements are at least mentioned (and sourced, of course). Being someone who climbed and was also Italian doesn't cut it. I've tried to find a source for a championship (Recent Deaths called him a champion), and all I see is a vague mention of the word, without specifics. The top English one here says he had "champion-like drive". Even I have that, sometimes. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

::Comment: There are no documented records or championships and that is the problem with this article meeting the standards of WP notability standards. Being "campion-like" is hardly a basis for notability, as you correctly point out. Wikipeterproject (talk) 08:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Delete. Sad death of a young child, but not notable prior to death (fails WP:SPORTCRIT) and death should neither be memorialized nor criteria for notability. WWGB (talk) 06:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Delete. Zero notability, despite the sad death and his age. --Lemur12 (talk) 10:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Delete. Sad that a child was permitted to throw his life away, but not notable, for reasons stated above.Sylvain1972 (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Delete in its present state.Deb (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Keep. Tito was one of the best climbers among children, his successes deserved for a wikipedia article even before this tragic fall. Now, as a result of the tragedy, he became more recognizable not only for climbers, but it does not matter - he had been notable enough before he died. Unfortunately, my English is not good enough to develop this article - it is a stub now.Tescobar (talk) 18:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• KeepThis is not correct. In his home country, close to everybody knew him before his death. He is the youngest person ever to climb the grade 8a (even A.O. did not) --Lampi-tm (talk) 12:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

— Lampi-tm (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

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:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LFaraone 00:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

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:Comment: It almost goes without saying that opinions not arguing a position based on WP policy should be disregarded in determining the outcome of this debate. Respectfully, the last two "keep" contributions fall into this category. They express a personal opinion, without policy substantiation. Wikipeterproject (talk) 08:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

::OK, let me justify that what I have written is not only a personal opinion. Wikipedia is considered an union of all specialized encyclopedias, am I right? If yes, it should include all records of a hypothetic "encyclopedia of sport climbing". In such an encyclopedia there should be a place for Traversa's biography for two independent reasons: (i) he was a youngest person ever to achieve sport grade 8a and more, (ii) because of unusual circumstances of his accident. The reasons of this tragedy are analysed in climbing media all over the world. Tescobar (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

:Comment: I don't know the Wikipedia outline for "notability," so I'll point out a few things and let the notability experts decide. Climbing (free climbing, rock climbing, etc.) is a sport without a known world-championship. Instead, it has standards (grades/gradings). The grades are often subjective in nature. There are many different grading systems. The generally accepted "standard" (not the toughest/highest) of climbing is a 5.14a (using the Yosemite Decimal scale; the rough equivalent would be the British E10 or French 8b+). Many people have successfully climbed 5.14a, so that, by itself, probably would not be notable. What's notable is that Traversa was the first person in the world, 10 years of age or younger, to successfully scale any 5.l4 or better (two others have scaled a 5.14 since), and also the youngest person to ever do so. That is his chief claim to fame. I'll let the notability experts decide if that's enough.Tom Barrister 17:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• On balance, keep - surprising that there isn't an it.wp article, but that aside evidently notable to WikiProject Climbing. We give wide latitude to sports projects, given this child has more coverage than most Olympic athletes and footballers with BLP stubs, cannot see any great logic in all the effort - including comparisons with monkeys wearing coats outside Ikea (what the hell is that for?) above to delete. More content would be good. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

::That's from dying a kid not from any notability criterion. Hekerui (talk) 08:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Keep - expansion needed. But I have to agree with user In ictu oculi some of the reasons stated above for deletion are not only shameful but almost slanderous of a dead person.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

:*Comment: "Slanderous"? Suggesting someone is not notable in accordance with Wikipedia policy is perhaps somewhat short of slander! Wikipeterproject (talk) 23:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.