Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Underlight

:{{la|Underlight}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Underlight Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Underlight}})

Fails WP:N and WP:V. The single third-party source gives no indication of being reliable, as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Archive_91#GamesFirst discussed previously by WPVG]. Another source mentioned on the Talk page is specifically unreliable, again per WPVG. The WPVG custom Google search for both reliable and situational sources returns zero results. Woodroar (talk) 23:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Withdrawn by nominator given additional sources below. Woodroar (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions. ({{find video game sources short|Underlight|linksearch=}}) Woodroar (talk) 23:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Weak delete. I was just going to confirm that the searches had nothing, but... they did have stuff? [http://www.1up.com/reviews/underlight Review from 1up.com] counts, though the GameZone stuff is just press releases. It's also in [http://www.engadget.com/gallery/massivelys-visual-history-of-mmorpgs-part-i/#slide=939861 this Massively visual history of MMORPGs (p. 8)]. This is a game from the 90s, so we have to go to print sources, but the best I could do with a quick search was an episode of [https://archive.org/details/BestComp98 Computer Chronicles]. It's possible that there's more out there but I found nothing special in LexisNexis, Factiva, Newspaper Archive. I'd prefer to see this merged if anyone has any good ideas. Perhaps something to do with Lyra's Reclamation, which possibly received more coverage? – czar 23:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

::That's weird. I just tried the searches again and, like you said, found plenty of results. Nothing that I would consider great except for that single 1Up review. You're right that there may be print sources out there, and I'd gladly !vote to keep if anyone can find them. Woodroar (talk) 00:24, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::* Weak keep. We have reviews from 1UP.com (above), Computer Gaming World (below), and I'd include Khabal (below), though WP:VG/RS is checking on its reliability. There is an interview with Gamespy (below) and a self-published [https://web.archive.org/web/20011123190751/http://rpgplanet.com/underlight/dagger_journal.htm dev entry in RPGPlanet] (owned by IGN) for the development section. All the other links are unreliable, mostly personal blogs. I'd feel more comfortable if one or two more review sources were uncovered, but the aforementioned sources (in addition to the Massively and perhaps Computer Chronicles linked above) should be just enough to eke out a tiny article on the subject. (It was notable enough to be covered in multiple reliable and independent sources.) – czar 06:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• Further Details.

Hello,

I am working with the current team who is operating the classic MMORPG Underlight. I have noticed that you have placed the page about our game on the deletion log. Could you please advise us as to what further details you need, or what needs to be clarified about this page to not remove it. I have been involved in the community of this game since early 1998, I and very many other players of this game past and present would be very disappointed that the history of the game be removed from Wikipedia. You can contact me and I would be happy to address any concerns you have. Thank you.

Some references you may have missed, that have been posted to our forums, like the original websites archived at archive.org:

• [http://web.archive.org/web/20070128072125/http://www.underlight.com/ Original Game Website]
• [http://web.archive.org/web/20010515194726/http://www.lyrastudios.com/ Original Company Website]
• [https://web.archive.org/web/20080321124553/http://underlight.ixios.net/ Ixios Underlight Website]
• [https://web.archive.org/web/20090304195048/http://www.shadesoftruth.net/about.html Ixios Early Underlight Website]
• [https://web.archive.org/web/20140218222139/http://echoesofchaos.com/ Red Coat Games Version]
• https://web.archive.org/web/20090808135045/http://geocities.com/gkteacher512/index.htm
• http://www.geocities.ws/doldreamscrolls/contents.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/20090730092611/http://geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/1396/index2.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/20021007194336/http://www.geocities.com/calenturian/Home
• http://www.reocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/7928/underlight.htm
• https://web.archive.org/web/19991201020043/http://208.231.11.193/entrance/Default.htm
• http://web.archive.org/web/20090829105352/http://geocities.com/tmarritza1/main.htm
• https://web.archive.org/web/20020803034701/http://euclid.dne.wvnet.edu/~por/welcome-2.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/20021202111755/http://members.cox.net/radiance/index.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/19990209142807/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chamber/7133/
• http://jonathanmurray.com/OSM

I'm going to stop here, there are many many more separate pages where people had provided details about this games existence. If the page needs to have some information removed, or additional citations made, I can work on that. I am very new to Wikipedia and editing, so please be patient with me. Thank you for your time and consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoiUnderlight (talk • contribs) 02:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:Replied at your talk page about our general sourcing requirements. The above sources all appear to be primary and/or unreliable/self-published sources and aren't of much value to us. Woodroar (talk) 02:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::Here is an external reference, Computer Gaming World (August 2002), I can mail you the magazine if you want.

• [https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8iEzfb8LffRXR6cmRMVDBJZEE/view?usp=sharing Computer Gaming World Cover August 2002]
• [https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8iEzfb8LffVy1pVTg2Vjd0Umc/view?usp=sharing Computer Gaming World TOC August 2002 - Underlight referenced as page 80]
• [https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8iEzfb8LffQ3M1LXNMclVvTVE/view?usp=sharing Computer Gaming World August 2002 - Page 80 - Article on Underlight]

KoiUnderlight (talk) 03:19, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::Some additional historical reviews from other review sites that were archived for your consideration:

• https://web.archive.org/web/20020313224953/http://www.unknownplayer.com/archive/02/02/23/370.php
• https://web.archive.org/web/20040628050156/http://archive.gamespy.com/legacy/interviews/ulprofile_a.shtm
• https://web.archive.org/web/20010422230952/http://www.fantaseum.com/editorials/underlight.shtml
• https://web.archive.org/web/20020604055232/http://www.khabal.com/articles/showarticle.php?id=159
• https://web.archive.org/web/20020825165258/http://www.mpogd.com/games/game.asp?id=268
• https://web.archive.org/web/20011205092637/http://www.rpgplanet.com/games/824.shtml
• https://web.archive.org/web/20021009024341/http://www.smartgirl.com/reviews/games/365834.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/20020806175205/http://www.smartgirl.com/reviews/games/371586.html

KoiUnderlight (talk) 05:51, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:: {{ping|KoiUnderlight|p=}}, do you know of any other reviews in major publications (esp. magazines)? Even if you don't have copies, it would help us to know where to look. Sites we consider reliable are listed here, if you're curious. – czar 05:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::: {{ping|czar|p=}}, I have yet to find a copy of the article, but I will be sure to post it when I do, but the game did receive a 2-page review in PC Gamer in late 1998 or 1999. One final note, since Underlight was first shut down by Lyra Studios LLC at the end of 2006, the players have continued to work towards it's preservation. No version of Underlight since the original Lyra Studios LLC version has ever charged any money to play. The game has been run on 100% volunteer effort and out of pocket expenses, that includes myself. Underlight was the only MMORPG that I can recall where playing an in-character persona was a requirement of playing at all times. To my knowledge, Underlight was the first MMORPG ever to have live-action FPS style combat in a 3D environment (no auto-attack exchange of numbers back and forth, real aiming & dodging). This is a very notable achievement in MMORPG history and should not be deleted just because it was obscure. Thank you for your consideration, please do not destroy an important part of MMORPG history. KoiUnderlight (talk) 06:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:::: Thanks. If you know around when the magazine was published, we could help look for it. Wikipedia [http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/130704/ only reports what it can verify]. Anything that is unsourced in the article will end up removed unless a reliable source backs it up. We also don't host claims of original research—only claims that are backed up by reliable, secondary sources. – czar 06:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::: Thank you {{ping|czar|p=}}. If we could find copies of PC Gamer between 1998-1999, I'm pretty certian in was in that span. One of the links I provided above was from GameSpy (interview May 2000) which does appear on WP:VG/RS as a reputable source. One other thing I should mention regarding Reclamation that you referred to above. Reclamation was planned to be the sequel to Underlight. If there were any magazines that spoke about it then it must have been from an interview with someone at Lyra Studios when they had begun development. Reclamation never made it to alpha testing, only concept art was ever released. - KoiUnderlight (talk) 06:53, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::As I mentioned at my Talk page, Computer Gaming World is short but the type of source we're looking for. I feel that finding that issue of PC Gamer would satisfy the notability requirements, though we'd want to rewrite the article around the available sources at that time. I'll gladly change my !vote to keep if that happens. Woodroar (talk) 11:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::::{{ping|Woodroar|p=}}, I just found another article mention on another site that is on the list here, GameSpot in this case: https://web.archive.org/web/19980423224847/http://gamespot.com/features/10multi/und.html I am still looking for more mentions, but finding old archived stuff from the 90's is amazingly difficult. - KoiUnderlight (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::::{{ping|czar|p=}} There is actual gameplay circa July '98 [https://archive.org/details/BestComp98 Computer Chronicles] starting at the 20:00 mark of the video, featuring Brian Jamison, the producer of Underlight. - KoiUnderlight (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::::: Yep, I had linked the video in my original post – czar 16:39, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::: I know this isn't an approved source, but just one more link regarding underlight when it was first run on Mplayer network. https://web.archive.org/web/19990504214838/http://www1.mplayer.com/news/980513/underlight.html - KoiUnderlight (talk) 18:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::Would you be able to get a larger or higher-resolution scan of the Computer Gaming World source? We don't need the entire magazine, just the relevant parts about Underlight. Woodroar (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::: {{ping|Woodroar|p=}} I was able to locate the PDF scan of this entire magazine on CGW Museum here: http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_217.pdf Page 92 of the PDF, Page number 80 in the magazine. Thanks for your help. - KoiUnderlight (talk) 23:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::::Wonderful! Thanks, and cheers! Woodroar (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Another reference from the Meridian 59 article: http://www.skotos.net/about/pr/03112003.html - KoiUnderlight (talk) 21:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Should be included simply for history. Not sure why you'd want to "Delete" it. At time of it's release, how many MMORPGS were there? Well, 1 big one (Ultima Online) Mplayer was also big - and promise of failed game (10six) -- well before EverQuest, etc. The reasons to include is because of it being reviewed in print - and online. And was one of very few MMORPGS at the time. Oogles (talk) 06:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I mentioned earlier that it also had a number of unique features that were firsts for the MMORPG genre such as live real-time FPS style combat and an enforced roleplay (in-character at all times) rules. Beyond that with the exception of some basic monsters, there were no NPCs, every other character and even the strongest of the monsters were played by real people. It also had a unique leveling system that required players to get quests written for them (no pre-scripted quests) by other more experienced players who had earned the title of teacher. This meant that every players experience was their own, no two people had the same experience when playing Underlight. The faction system was the first to incorporate physical in game structures that were unique to each individual faction, not just a title above your characters head to go along with the name. Also, it's server technology, the Lyra Destinations engine, could handle all of this live-action FPS combat with players using as low as 14.4kbps modem due to the compression algorithms used. From what I've been told it was also configured to form a cluster allowing for a single server instance to be handled by as many servers as needed with all players in a single world (like EVE Online). The technological achievements alone are noteworthy (albeit they won't be found in any game reviews, which focus on gameplay, user experience and the client itself). Many of these, but not all, were mentioned in the various reviews above, albeit most of those reviews were after newer games such as Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest had come out and made the game pale in comparison aesthetically. - KoiUnderlight (talk) 02:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::::::: Vastly different system requirements, too. Pentium 90 16MB Ram. https://web.archive.org/web/19990204013821/http://www.mplayer.com/rpg/games/underlight/ Is web archives of websites acceptable as sources? The reason why I mentioned 10six, is it was one at that time that was trying to make a FPS on-line MMORPG - failed. And while I wouldn't consider Underlight solely a FPS game, it certainly was an aspect of it. Other so-called games of the type (in-character required) were just glorified graphical MUD/MUSH/IRC interfaces, or web-based. Oogles (talk) 09:59, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

{{od|::::::::::::::: }} In terms of improving the article, all of those claims should be attributed to vg reliable sources. (Our job is to present the sources, [http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/130704/ not to find the truth].) Archival links are fine, but can only be used for uncontroversial, descriptive claims, not something superlative like it being the best or first to do something, etc. – czar 13:35, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:: And I certainly understand that, we aren't an investigatory platform to seek out sources of 'facts' that we want to find. But, for example, I'm sure I can find on-line reviews (at time of it's release) with the waybackmachine.

Just not sure if that's valid as a source, if the original is gone. I did an example above, on MPlayer.

In addition to a lot of other stuff that has been removed. I agree saying 'first' to do something is hard - but this is a talk page, not the article, I wouldn't put that in the article. But I think we can all agree the total number of MMORPGS at time of it's release was amazingly less than now. Oogles (talk) 08:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.